Engine Kit Consensus
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11146
Printed Date: 24 Jan 2025 at 12:48am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Engine Kit Consensus
Posted By: DaveKamp
Subject: Engine Kit Consensus
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2010 at 9:26pm
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Hi Everybody! Okay, so I've got some Allis engines that'll eventually be getting overhauls. One's a '37 WC, the other's a '48 B. BOTH will need sleeves and pistons, the B will DEFINATELY need bearings, so I'm planning on rebuilding that engine in a stand. I MAY overhaul the WC in-frame, as the journals, mains etc., all look really good. Questions: 1) OF the sleeve/piston kits, which ones are imported, and which ones are domestically manufactured... 2) SOME are flattop-piston kits, some are slightly dished. Both my engines have dished pistons (the WC has a pretty aggressive crater)... what should I expect in terms of CR change, and what is the preferable piston shape? 3) Are there any substantial reasons NOT to go with the oversized bore kits? |
Replies:
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2010 at 9:47pm
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I've ran into cracked sleeves with overbores on 201 and 226 engines. I liked Howard Enterprises. At least that's what I used to get when I worked at the dealership. They had quality stuff and the Allis kits were just like OEM at that time, 10 years ago. I don't know if they sell to anyone but businesses but if not you could get your local dealer to order from them. http://www.howardenterprises.com/ - http://www.howardenterprises.com/ ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: GregLawlerMinn
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 8:07am
| I remember being told that the dished top of the pistons in the WD45, D14, D12, etc was part of the combustion chamber. However, have seen several aftermarket pistons for the D12/D14 that are flat. Perhaps someone who is knowledgeable of this could jump in and help. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 9:48am
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pay a little more get youre sleeves from melling and pistons from mailto:j@e - j@e ross wiseco or arias. you will have better stuff and know where it came from. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 6:46pm
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GregLawlerMinn Those tractor heads are flat with the block. When the valves open they drop down into the cylinder. The pistons either have to be dished out for valve clearance or a flat top piston has to be down from the top for valve clearance. A flat topped piston would have a lower compression than the dished pistons. Therefore the term power crater. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 6:51pm
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you can run as high as 15.1 compression and .550 lift with a flat top piston easy I am doing it .Piston to valve would be hard to get with the dished pistons but even they dont come up flush to the deck . Cause you cant get a deep enough and large enough dish for the cc it takes to keep the compression ratio in check ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 7:14pm
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I have NEVER run into cracked liners in overbore kits. I'm sure I haven't been into as many engines, but I've rebuilt many of them using the kit I sell.
1) Our kits are Hastings/Richland Idustries/Victor Reinz. All quality parts.
2) On your WD, if you go with our kit, you will get a flat-top piston with slightly higher than factory compression ratio.
3) No, other than if you count the stories that start with "I heard".
JImD ------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: countryguy828
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 7:25pm
| I bought a kit From Jim on my CA, and bought many other parts from him. I will continue to buy from him. |
Posted By: norm [ind]
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 7:44pm
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quality control in this world today is bad had new brakea put on our trailer took 3 trips to get the right parts first wrong shoe size then wrong bolts sent 1/2" verus 9/16"
DEXTER PARTS EVERYONE IS MAD AT US NOW ALL WERE PKG. WRONG no visual inspection any more in all parts!!!!!! same applies for our machine shop pistons crankshafts valves an all call 1-574-342-4545 can explain could write all nitebeen in business since 1967 still is getting worse my 2 cents if they cannot punch it in a computer it is not available try 1930 to 1960 for parts see what the answer is
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Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 8:13pm
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Jim, I've run into two WD engines with overbore that cracked right in the o-ring area. Two sleeve in one engine. I don't believe the C/CA/B overbore sleeve would crack. They look a bit thicker than the WD overbore sleeve. I've never run into a stock sleeve that was cracked. The Allis dealership I used to work at wouldn't sell overbore kits at all. Only Allis standard bore kits. They'd sell aftermarket carb kits and other things but not engine kits. That's been my experience. It's my belief that the dished piston gives a better combustion and keeps the compression from blowing by the top ring. I think mlpankey might disagree about the dish. I read it in Mopar magazine awhile ago. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 8:52pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Lonn wrote:Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 8:59pm
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I'm not going to argue with you mlpankey. Just read it in Mopar once that the dish protected the top ring by taking most of the force to the center of the piston. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 9:03pm
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And 440s had dome pistons you could take them out and swap to the other bank and pick up 30 horses. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 9:08pm
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The other what? ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 9:11pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2010 at 11:55pm
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Wow... this really isn't what I was expecting... Guys- I don't have a WD... I have a WC... a 201. Inside surface of the cylinder head is flat, and when at TDC, the 'lip' of the piston is essentially flush with the deck. I'm not sure how the WD engine is set up, but if I put a flat-top piston in here, and don't change the compression height, I'm betting I'll have compression ratio in excess of 30:1, and a bucket-full of broken rocker-arms and bent valves. The concept of the 'power crater' design, from what I see, is that you get the advantage of a hemispherical chamber, the turbulence of a 'loop-charged' cross-flow engine, but with much simpler valve geometry and same-side intake and exhaust. Regardless, what I'm looking for, is a suggestion of quality and point-of-origin of the various kits commonly advertised, as well as some insight into things to consider if I were to use the overbore. Obviously, there's less material in the overbore sleeve, but apparently the later brethren of the WC ran larger bore and larger stroke with no problems. I really don't know the differences between the WC and WD engines, and at this point, since I only have a B and a WC in my shop, the WD-related information is irrelevant. I'm not interested in raising the CR or getting incredible horsepower out of this old girl- I want to be able to hand-start it, use it for calm chores, and take it to an occasional come-as-you-are show, without worrying about it raining oil or stranding me, and once I've got this engine back together, I'd like to be satisfied that I'll be dead and buried long before she needs to be opened up again. The original pistons and sleeves lasted at least 50 years... I'd like to get a repeat longetivity from what I install. |
Posted By: Glockhead SWMI
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 7:29am
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I have asked this same question and never got a straight answer. All the venders claim that there kit is great, everyone else argues about compression, power crater or flat top... excetera...
Could buy an Agco kit. Keep the four inch bore and keep the oem quality.
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Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 8:25am
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As far as cracked sleeves, if you over bore a stock 4'' sleeve to 41/8 it may crack because the outer OD is smaller through the middle of the sleeve for better cooling of the sleeve. The 4" uses different orings as the 41/8 which makes the area at the oring area thinner.
I have redone the 301 block to except 201-226 41/8 sleeved and ran 5000 rpms 60Lb of boost in a pulling engine and busted a few sleeves, but have never saw a stock application 41/8 sleeve crack in my 49 years as a AC machanic. No dought there have been some. ( I have since went to a ductal iron sleeve materal with no problem. MACK
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Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 8:46am
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Dave, the WC and the WD used the same basic engine, so the kits are interchangable, and therefore the disussion about the WD's.
The flat top pistons are compenssated by moving the wrist pin to a higher point in the piston. This lowers the compression back down. You will certainly not see 30:1 with our kit. More like 17:1 or 18:1 if I recall. Panky has run the numbers, but I believe the stock was 16:1, so we are not talking great differences.
I have people want to install my overbore kits for the added displacement, and I advise them they will be dissapointed. You are talking about going from a 201 to about a 206. Not enough to warrent a rebuild. But if you are talking about a worn out engine with no compression, you will be very satisfied. I rebuild them here in my shop for customers. I do not build radical pulling motors, I build working engines. I'm no machinist either. Ipul the engine apart just as you would, clean things up, drop the crank at the machine shop, and the block if it's rough. I install the kit. The only real fitting needed with my kit is to make sure the sleeves drop in, and can spin by hand, and I check the piston ring's end gap, though I've never had to adjust them on my kits, only when just re-ringing an engine.
I plastigage the bearings, and use proper shims, and button it up. I have lots of happy customers working my engines, and a lot more that I have sold kits to. Additionally, I provide a toll free number while you install the kit, and will answer questions to the best of my ability.
JImD
------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 9:08am
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Dave, im not sure that you explained your motor quite right. The head is flat, but at TDC, the piston should be down maybe 3/4 inch from the top deck. THat forms the combustion chahber. As Jim said, you can raise the compression by chaning the wrist pin location in the piston so it might come up to 5/8 inch from the deck (this is a refenrece). That might raise your old 6 :1 compression motor to 7.5 :1 compression .... again, the above numbers are for explaination and not exact specs. YOu can also raise the compression with the crater or dish type... I would suggest getting a higher compression for your motor, but not going over 8 :1 compresion... you wil be happy. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 9:29am
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Keep in mind as I stated before where the top of the piston parks at top dead center has less effect on the compression ratio than where the first compression ring land sets in the bore. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 10:27am
| Dave, to answer part of your question , an agco kit is what I would use, but in your situation you might be served well with an after market kit. I would use the power crater pistons with the right pin height for your crank. Forget about the crap thats being spouted about rings haveing any effect on compression ratio. Compression ratio is the ratio of cylinder volume at BDC to cylinder volume at TDC. Piston ring location is not and has not ever been any part of the equation. The ratio would not change even if your piston had no rings. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 1:02pm
http://books.google.com/books?id=GUC52-afG5EC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=compression+ratio+and+ring+lands&source=bl&ots=HZ4NFkfC3r&sig=7R-PZ-P6oiI9LhBD-JO3va5gm7U&hl=en&ei=UVLLS7-fCI_y9QTI6q3HBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAg - http://books.google.com/books?id=GUC52-afG5EC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=compression+ratio+and+ring+lands&source=bl&ots=HZ4NFkfC3r&sig=7R-PZ-P6oiI9LhBD-JO3va5gm7U&hl=en&ei=UVLLS7-fCI_y9QTI6q3HBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAg # ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 1:52pm
| COMPRESSION RATIO is what YOU were writeing about, Rings seal in pressure but they don't change the ratio , re-read YOUR post. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 1:54pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 2:05pm
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Ok my fellow engine building pupils lets help our classmate Garry out on page 50 of the link in orange . Which piston would have the higher compression ratio the one on the left or right? ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 7:51pm
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Gary, you'll regret it. You can't win with him as he knows all. I usually don't get negative on the tractor site but I only can tolerate so much from a fool. According to pankey volume means nothing. According to his statement, not his reference article, ring placement has more to do with compression than piston height. So a 4" tall piston running with a ring .100" from the top has more compression than a 6" tall piston with the ring .25" from the top or even 1" from the top with everything else being the same. That's how he comes off. His later posts he tries to change his statement comparing two pistons the same height but different ring placements. I'll say that his later post is right and his earlier post is foolish. And mlpankey, there is more than one mindset working at Mopar as engineers and there is more than one magazine dedicated to Mopar and I don't know if any are owned and operated by Chrysler or Dodge or whatever they go by these days. What I read is what I read. I take it as more informative than you have been. You have only been rude and should go back to the political forum to let out your rudeness and aggressions. It's doesn't belong here. Good day. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 8:19pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 8:54pm
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leave it pankey it's gone sour for you, you're giving expensive advise to a novice who wants to rebuild his engine ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 9:08pm
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changing the wrist pin 1/8 inch in height will give a heck of a lot more compression. Moving a ring up on down the piston 1/4 wont effect compression much at all since the area is only .003 inch wide ..... your not getting much volumn out of that small area. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 9:10pm
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Hi Steve- You're right- I went back and took another look at my project photos, and at TDC, the piston never exhibits protrusion- it is down, looks like around 1/2". And guys- I understand compression height, displacement, compression ratio, and piston ring theory very, very well- I bought a hardbound copy of Taylor's "The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice, 2nd Edition" when I was in high-school, read it cover-to-cover and bluprinted a few engines prior to engineering school. Compression ratio is a function of displacement over TDC total chambered volume. This volume includes volume left unoccupied by the 'dish', as well as unswept area at the top of the cylinder... even the cavity area within the spark-plug insulator and a wee bit'a space around that top ring. Panky- What John refers to on Page 50 only applies when you're comparing the compression ring's position between two identical pistons, and if you do the math, you'll find that the change of compression characteristic with respect to setback distance only has a significant effect when you have very high CR and very little quench volume. John didn't overlook this in the article, Page 49 states it quite clearly. In short, when you're dealing with a total chamber volume of 100cc, having 0.031cc of ring land volume, vs. 0.029cc, the net change in compression ratio is three places in from the decimal. Finally, if you look at Page 50, directly above where you referenced, the image caption explains why one would NOT want to relocate the ring higher- durability. All I'm trying to do, is determine, out of all the 'stuff' advertised out there, what is imported (and for me, undesired), and where non-dished pistons are offered, will the WC gasoline stock 5:1 compression ratio wind up being 7.25:1, or what. So far, of what I've seen, NOBODY advertises the point of origin, or the resulting CR WILL be. Perhaps I'm being a bit too 'protective' of my project, but there's a plethora of parts being shipped in from southeast Asia, and I have no intention of putting such things inside this old girl. Melling is about a 40 minute drive from my doorstep, so if I buy everything individually, I'll drive up there and tour the plant when I pick up sleeves. Pistons are a different story- I haven't seen ANY places that advertise making replacement AC power-crater pistons, and I suspect that if they WERE, they'd likely be imported. Frankly, if domestically-made quality replacements aren't available, I'd rather chuck my pistons in the 10EE and turn 'em to round and re-cut the ring lands, have a new set of rings MADE, and take 'em to Melling to have a set of undersized sleeves made-to-suit, but I have a sneaking suspicion I'm not the first guy to be doing a WC. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 9:18pm
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I think we all have the same concerns Dave.. probalby 90% of the guys on this page, if they were rebulding a motor, would like to use USA parts. Thye would also like to raise the compression from the original 5 or 6 :1 to 7.5 or 8 :1 just to get a couple extra HP. Boring the motor .030 over is not going to make any HP to speak of. What you really want is dependability... That being said, there is nothing wrong with Asian parts if your dealing with a good dealer who has had good luck with his parts. Your putting your faith in the dealer... Sounds like you know what you want, but might not be available.. I think the overseas pistons are probalby o.k. Most of the liners are=o.k.... what you really got to do is measure and make sure they are made to spec.. YOu can buy Hasting Piston rings in ANT size you want for ANY motor, on their site . You might go that route. I remember a couple weeks ago someone bought a new ikit and then found out the bores were .015 oversize and not round... thats were your dealer can be helpful.. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Kip-Utah
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2010 at 11:29pm
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My BS meter just maxed out & I think that it might have even broke the needle!! ------------- HANSEN'S OLD ORANGE IRON. Showing, Pulling, & Going!! |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2010 at 2:02pm
They got the pistons on the wrong side and the rings mounted too low in cracked 1/8 overbore sleeves dont ya know???
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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2010 at 2:25pm
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My point on ring land location and page 50 pointed it out . Is that two different kits can have the same pin location but one kit will run better if the first ring is within a 1/4 of the top of the piston vs 1/2 inch down for turbo application. Considering the little things in a engine build can make horsepower over shade tree joes build without any extra money being spent and leave you with a smile when dynoing at the local fair. PS that is no BS! ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2010 at 4:06pm
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I stand corrected, seems to happen about every time I play expert on here. I never even specified turbo, or no-turbo when I ordered the kits for my WC and B models. I will next time.
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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2010 at 6:03pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |