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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=110124
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Topic: LLSS

Posted By: Acllss puller
Subject: LLSS
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2015 at 9:58pm

Hey LLSS guys. Can you put a 4 pinion rear end in a 180 with drop axels. Or do I need to go to 190-200 rear end to make this work. Blew mine apart for second time in three yrs on a nasty track. We are an alky making hp and torque.

Replies:

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2015 at 10:42pm

Anybody got a 4pinion rear end for sale. Could be interested in whole rear assembly from a 190 or 200. How much more does this weigh than a 180 rear with drop axels?

Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2015 at 7:10am

You'll have to change the ring and pinion gears to use a four-pinion differential. The ring gear I.D. bore has to be machined larger to slip onto the diff carrier. If you can figure out how to do that, use your old R&P.

Posted By: bsallis180
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2015 at 1:09pm

You break at Little Valley? What happened?

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2015 at 8:47pm

Split the differential in two at 100ft. Time for a heavier rear end

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2015 at 8:48pm

Can it be done with out weakening the ring.

Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2015 at 9:15pm

Won't weaken the ring gear at all.......just a matter of finding a way to grind it out. I assume it's pretty hard. You'll also have to change the right side bearing cup to fit the new diff bearing, again requiring some machining. I hope you have a brass rub block on the right side to keep the ring gear from spreading apart from the pinion....that is a must in my books.

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2015 at 9:22pm

I do not have the brass rub block, this the first I ve heard of it been pull in this set up for 20 yrs. Just makin a lot more power now.

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2015 at 9:28pm

Does the rear end housing got to be machined out for a bigger bearing carrier? What about bolt patterns

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2015 at 9:31pm

Or do you just machine out the 180 carrier to fit the four pinion bearing cup?

Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2015 at 9:58pm

I have a 190XT rear end assy I would sell. Just saw you are in NY. a long way from Mo.

What are you breaking in rear end? MACK

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 12:21am

Broke the two pinion differential housing this time. Last time took all the teeth off pinion shaft and differential. Having trouble keepn straight now with all the extra hp. Cummins 370 on alky, LLSS

Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 1:40am

You must have a bunch of power to break a differential. What gear are you in and what does it weigh?? Do you have any video?

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 5:59pm

6500 lbs@22.7 :1 5000 plus rpm

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 6:07pm

So it looks like I'm going with a all new 190 rear with 4 pinion.This way I can pressure lube and install disc breaks. So now I have to speed up by 10 and 20%. does anyone have gears to put in second and third slots to do this? Or could use an overdrive kit but then still need a faster third. Any help on suggestions. Thanks. The 180 research turned up that need new Axel gears and must machine a bearing cup, but have question as to whether the 180 pinion shaft will mesh with the 4 pinion ring???

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 6:10pm

180 is 12 bolt, 190/200 is 16 bolt ring

Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 6:34pm

You shouldn't have trouble with a correctly assembled two pinion at 6500 lbs. in a 23:1 gear. I assume you are in direct drive? There are a few 180's running much faster ratio's at the same weight or heavier. In my mind the ratio is directly related to the ft. lbs. produced and the torque is what breaks stuff. As the doctor stated, the rub block behind the ring gear is important. I good diff pin and correct washers behind the gears is also key. Running good oil with the oil level overfull also keeps things happy.

Does it bounce or do anything that would be otherwise hard on the driveline??

No doubt a four pinion would be better. It's not gonna be a 15 minute job to make it fit.

Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 8:08pm

OK, you got me on the 12 and 16 bolt thing. The ring gears begin their life as the same part, but wind up with the inner bore larger and obviously more bolts. You can install a 190XT four pinion ring & pinion gearset in a 180/185 rear end housing. That is for sure. I think the differential side gears will fit. They are all 23 splines in 180-185-190-190XT, so I think they will fit. Two things against the 190 rear end....weight.....slower top speed. You'll gain probably 200-300 pounds in weight and about 20% slower in road gear.

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 8:32pm

I was told by Perry that I would have to buy the sp ecial Axel pinion gears to fit the 180 Axel to the 4 pinion rear end??

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 8:36pm

I've seen stoners at 20:1 and that is no where near this wheel speed.3000-3500rpm at 20:1 vs 5000rpm at 22.7. Yes I have had wild rides, had to use breaks more than ever.

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 8:39pm

R the pinion shafts interchangable

Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 8:40pm

That means nothing to me..."special". A WD45 and D-17's prior to the Series 3 and even the earliest D-19's all had 10 spline differential side gears. Newer than that were 23 splines. I assume ALL of them interchange the 23 spline size....late D-17, 170, 180, 190, etc. You need to take a trip to a boneyard and actually size things up.

Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2015 at 9:34pm

Is your pin needled properly?? Why are you having to use the brakes so much? That may be what is shocking the driveline and breaking things - maybe - dunno. Is the stance of your rear wheels wide? That can also make them drive worse and be harder to correct. Alky superstocks have lots of power and can go straight down the track so the additional power probably isn't the only issue.

The wheel speed may have no effect on the foot lbs. applied. I doubt that spinning the differential faster is what's causing it to fail. Just because you may be spinning things faster doesn't necessarily mean you are applying more stress. Probably the opposite. You may have more HP so you can do the same job faster, but the ft. lbs. on the 370 inch alky might be less than a slower running larger cubed or twin powered diesel. We have 180's hear that always run 18:1 and sometimes run in the 17:1 ratios @ 6700 lbs. with a two pinion - no differential issues.

The next thing is that a 180 differential will spin slower(and is stressed more)than a 190 differential at the same total ratio because the final drive ratios on a 180 - 185 are faster than a 190. Apples to oranges to compare the two for this exercise.

My point here is that I think it should work. Not sure why it isn't.

Side note - 5000 RPM @ 23:1 = 4250 RPM @ 20:1 by my math.

How often do you run against the 190 and how do you two compare?

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2015 at 9:15pm

Stoners tractor is very strong , it hooks well every pass very competitive.usually in top 5 every event. Different power , not big rpm just Hangs tough. Yes my tire stance is to wide and probably did hurt diff with the wild rides.but I do believe it's time to go 4 pinion.not sure on the 180 rear vs 190 ,ilike having1200 lbs movable weight. Not sure yet if going to speed up trans. Or just overdrive everything. 21.5/23.5/25:1would a nice combination for all tracks I think so like 15-20-30 % overdrive. If only have one gear somewhere between 23-24:1 would be good. Going to ck on the Axel gear thing 2mro

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2015 at 8:28pm

Axel gears in 180 are 16 tooth,while the Axel gear for the 4 pinion are 18 both are 21 spline inside I think. So that were Perry said I needed a diffent gear to make it fit in an 180 .

Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2015 at 8:57pm

I don't know what your point is with this post. The key is, will the 23 (not 21) splines interchange between a 180 and 190 differential side gears or not. The 180/185 final drives ratio are 5.85 to 1. The 190-200 final drives ratio are 7.15 to 1.

Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2015 at 9:03pm

180/185 final drives are 13 teeth and 76 teeth. 190/200 final drives are 13 teeth and 93 teeth.

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2015 at 9:27pm

Mike do you know if perrys gears were actually 10-20-30% over for a 190 trans. I'm looking for 21-23-25 :1 ratio or as close as I can get to those numbers. You can reach me 716-866-2114 thanks.

Posted By: Relayman
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2015 at 11:25am

I believe the original set of Perry gears in our 190 were:
8.566% for a 25.606/1 ratio
17.818% for a 23.595/1 ratio
27.841% for a 21.745/1 ratio

Posted By: AC200Puller
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2015 at 3:03pm

My plans are to make a LLSS starting with a 7000 rear end , any thoughts on this? will I get to be to heavy?

Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2015 at 3:17pm

Ever think.of using a 6080 rear end,?

Posted By: bsallis180
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2015 at 9:06pm

not sure about that. there more weight then a 190. with that dual pto/engine clutch trying to get something to work and the 3 speed planitary gear box ehhhh. i would like to have a 301 in it for farming tho

Posted By: bradley6874
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2015 at 8:12am

OK is it a farm tractor or a pulling tractor you don't usually build a farm tractor

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You can wash the dirt off the body but you can’t wash the farmer out of the heart and soul

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2015 at 9:01pm

Thanks for the info. I think I have found a Perry set up complete with those ratios.

Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2015 at 9:32pm

Does anybody know of any of the Perry trans sitting anywhere????