427435?
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=105893
Printed Date: 26 Jun 2024 at 12:19pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 427435?
Posted By: Jordan(OH)
Subject: 427435?
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 8:04am
| In Norm's book it states that AC was looking at two outside engine suppliers for tractors and combines if they were to continue in business. I assume one was Komatsu since that was in the 8095. What was the other one? |
Replies:
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 11:04am
|
CUMMINS WAS ONE. I saw a 7000 series with a 555 cummins in it on test - hold over from the 440's. They needed something that was higher hp and less money than a new AC engine budget wise. I am sure when AC let word out it was considering alt engines, just like a puppy dawg in heat , the sales men from every mfg was on the doorstep.... ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 11:15am
|
Actually, I had contacted a several engine suppliers and gotten quotes from CAT, Cummins, Perkins, and Komatsu on engines to cover the 6000 through 4W-305 usage. Cummins was probably the other one that Swinford was thinking about as they were very interested in gaining our business-----------although CAT was also. CAT made several trips to West Allis and met with Roy Ulner on at least one occasion. Komatsu had the most attractive pricing, but would only price in yen----not $$$. However, the dollar was strong against the yen at that time. Both they and we were concerned about that. The exchange rate did indeed change a few years later and their price advantage would have been lost. At the original prices that Komatsu quoted (vs the transfer costs going to the Engine Division), the Tractor Division would have been profitable despite the low production rates we had in '83 and '84. With the prices from CAT and Cummins, we would have been close to break-even and a heck of a lot better off than we were with the Harvey prices. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: Mike Plotner
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 11:38am
|
pretty neat to learn stuff like that from the End Times. got any other interesting facts? ------------- 2001 Gleaner R42, 1978 7060, 1977 7000, 1966 190 XT, 1966 D-17 Series IV and 1952 WD and more keep my farm running! |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 1:33pm
| What did a complete 301 or 426 diesel from Harvey cost ? |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 3:09pm
I don't remember the exact prices, but the transfer prices got determined annually between the general managers of the Tractor Division and Engine Division and Roy Ulner (president of the ag equipment group). The price was supposedly based on $/hp based on what the general market was charging. That of course, led to a lot of What I remember was that the Harvey prices were between $35-$37 per hp and the prices from Komatsu were around $26-$27 per hp and Cummins was around $30/ hp. When you multiply around 3000 tractors x an average of around 110-120 hp by $5-10, it gets to be a very big number. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
DougG wrote:Posted By: AC 426 power
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 4:38pm
427, I read somewhere that Allis and International Harvester had talks of merging but noting worked out because they were 2 nearly bankrupt company's any truth to this? Would have neat to have seen a IH 400 series engine behind a 8000 series style Allis with a powershift, were Allis lacked in engine technology IH excelled, and were IH lacked in transmission technology, Allis excelled in it, it would have been a marriage made in heaven right?  Too bad both were broke
|
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 7:30pm
| a "red" Allis? whew! |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 7:31pm
| I guess it wouldn't be so bad....sure keep the crap away that I gits now! |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 7:44pm
The only place I've heard that is on the internet. That doesn't say it couldn't have happened, but both had good tractors and combines and neither had the money to buy the other out. I was involved on the periphery when Deutz came around. I met with one of their engineers to look into how hard it would be to put a Deutz engine in an West Allis tractor while the higher ups meet separately. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: Big Orange
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 8:11pm
| Its ironic that the old low tech AC 426 engine in the YOUNGBLOOD tractor was the points champ, 5 years in a row. HA HA !!! |
Posted By: AC 426 power
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 8:41pm
|
Posted By: Dgrader
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 9:10pm
|
Mark, I've been driving an 8550 some this week and I was wondering about who designed the cab. The sideposts were put right in your line of sight. To see out you have to lean forward or back. Not complaining but it's a blind spot. ------------- Ya cain't fix stupid. |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 9:22pm
|
Dgrader, I agree with you on the cabs. I could never warm up to the 7000 series cabs because of the size and the sightlines. 8000 series was a huge improvement. Same BS goes on every day with business between divisions of the same company. Waiting on the go ahead of a huge job for us while two divisions of the same huge privite company argue of how much they are going to charge each other. Both want to make their numbers the best for the owners. Meanwhile a lot of business is being lost. ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 9:57pm
That was a derivative of the 2WD cab-------------a cab that was done when I wasn't there.  I still remember seeing the the 7000 series tractors for the first time (I was working at White Farm at the time). I couldn't believe the phone booth cab and the difficulty of getting into that cab. Now the 8000 Series cab, you can blame me for that. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: acd21man
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 10:16pm
|
427435 just what all did u do at AC? sounds like you had a dream job. ------------- 2 wd 45,2 D-17 diesel/gas 3 pt, 220,d21, 4020,2 4430s used daily http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCudh8Xz9_rZHhUC3YNozupw |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 10:54pm
|
Me thinks one of the culprits / heroes was Ernest Kritezburg . Ole Ernie.. ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 11:13pm
I actually worked for them twice. First stint was right out of college as a test engineer on farm implements at the Proving Grounds south of West Allis. In late 1967, Allis decentralized all the engineering, and I ended up at the La Crosse works. In 1969, they closed the La Crosse plant and wanted me to move to La Porte Indiana. Rather than move so far away from family in Minnesota (and to get to working on tractors instead of implements), I went to work for Minny Mo in Hopkins, MN as a tractor test engineer. Over the next 8 years, I went from tractor test engineer to project engineer for what became the White 4-150 and 4-180. White moved out of Minnesota to a suburb of Chicago in 1976. I looked around a bit and ended up in tractor engineering at West Allis. Spent some time as a staff engineer for product safety and reliability and then became Tractor Design Engineering Manager in 1979. I loved that position. When Deutz started sniffing around in 1984 and with Allis tottering on bankruptcy, I moved on (and back to Minnesota). ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 11:16pm
Two comments on Ernie. One, the cab on the 7000 Series wasn't his fault---------it was dictated by the head of engineering at that time. He thought a small cab give better sight lines and would be quieter. Two, when I became tractor design manager, Ernie became a test engineer. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: AC 426 power
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 11:22pm
| 427,Was it well known publicly that AC was going to fall by 1984? Or was it a shock to the ag market? |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 12:08am
I don't know how well known it was to the general public. Allis-Chalmers corporation was losing money and had been for quite a while-------------so it shouldn't have been a surprise. I don't know when the average ag AC employee found out about Deutz buyout. I didn't leak it to anyone when they first started visiting in early 1984, and I left in November of 1984. I don't think the public announcement came until sometime in 1985. If you were looking, you could see the hand writing on the wall, however. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 12:19am
|
I think the handwriting was on the wall at several companies. I remember reading that IHC was loosing over a million bucks a day! They had just built a huge tractor plant and didn't have enough orders to run it efficiently. I'm sure JD was sweating too but they had a fairly profitable construction equipment business plus building frames for motor homes. They also had a lot more money in the bank then the other companies. ------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: Dgrader
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 4:08am
|
Mark I wasn't blamin you for the 8550 cab. A 400 lb.er struggle gettin in there. If ya got a woman in there she definitely couldn't get away. You did a good job on the 8000 series cab. Major improvement, no complaints there. ------------- Ya cain't fix stupid. |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 7:59am
|
One time while visiting with Norm Swinford about the tractor company's having a hard time financial, and particularly JD. Norm said that, if you are a member of the family, and head of the family company, you try harder. Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: AllisFreak MN
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 8:13am
|
427435, Did A-C farm out the actual production of the cab to Hiniker in Minnesota? I thought I read that somewhere. ------------- '49 A-C WD, '51 A-C WD, '63 A-C D17 Series III, 1968 A-C One-Seventy, '82 A-C 6060, '75 A-C 7040, A-C #3 sickle mower, 2 A-C 701 wagons, '78 Gleaner M2 |
Posted By: Seth Souerdike
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 8:16am
|
a red allis? i just puked a bit in my mouth... ------------- There are no atheist in foxholes. |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 8:41am
| They made 4 for MF prolly RED, supposedly- |
Posted By: AC 426 power
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 8:53am
| Rather red then nasty old Deutz green lol and maybe they would have not destroyed AC like Deutz |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 9:22am
Both the 6000 and 8000 cabs were initially built in LaPorte. When that plant was closed, the cabs were put out on bid. A company in the Quad Cities got the 8000 cab and Crenlo in Rochester, MN got the 6000 cab.. As for Deutz, karma caught up with them. They lost so much money with the Deutz-Allis mismanagement that they eventually had to sell out to Same.  ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 9:57am
| There is no doubt that the 8000 series cab is second to none, but I kind of like my 7000 series cabs, too. Darrel |
Posted By: Mike Plotner
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 11:17am
well MF kinda took down what branding we had left... no orange tractors or the Allis name ------------- 2001 Gleaner R42, 1978 7060, 1977 7000, 1966 190 XT, 1966 D-17 Series IV and 1952 WD and more keep my farm running! |
Posted By: matador
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 12:11pm
|
So, if you don't mind me asking- I've heard that there were others that were looking at buying A-C (Other than Deutz or IH)- is that true? Also, I've heard that there was a lot of tension between Oliver and Minneapolis-Moline when White started parts sharing. I'm assuming that this is why they just stopped both brands, and started making Whites... Is that true? |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 3:15pm
|
Very interesting thread!!! |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 5:10pm
It didn't take an Einstein to figure out that White Motor would eventually merge Oliver, MM, and Cockshutt into one operation------------so I suspect there was a lot of in-fighting amongst the dealers and sales reps trying to position themselves to be a survivor. There was some reluctance when the Charles City/Oliver engineering group was moved to Hopkins but, once in the Twin Cities for a bit, few wanted to move back to Charles City. However, once the engineering depts were combined, I suspect everyone knew the final shoe would be dropping soon. What most people weren't aware of was that White Motor had an advanced projects group in Torrance, CA that was working on state-of-the-art engines for both trucks and ag equipment as well as drivetrains for farm tractors. We built a few prototypes in Hopkins, but the programs were killed when times got tough for both trucks and ag equipment in the 70's. So instead of merging operations with brand-new tractors, the 4-150 became the first of the White Farm tractors with new styling (done by Larry Shinoda, the guy that styled the Corvette Sting Ray and the Boss Mustang among other things) and the rest is history. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: matador
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 6:18pm
|
We have a very early 2-105. The dealer nameplate on the side shows an Oliver logo. I don't know how to read WFE serial numbers- the cab has a serial number above the back window, but I don't know if that's for the cab or the entire tractor... It's easy to tell that there is a lot of Oliver blood there, but did MM contribute anything? From what I can see, our 2-105 seems like an Oliver with different sheetmetal. So, White was looking into building their own engines? I've never heard about that. Another question if you know- who did the White cabs? I absolutely love the design on them. Thanks for the knowledge! |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 6:39pm
The dealer probably had a bunch of old decals with the Oliver logo that he was using up. He maybe was also just staying "loyal" to Oliver and resisting buying decals with White Farm on them. Yes, the 2-105 was basically an Oliver tractor with new sheet metal and cab. I'm not sure who made the cabs. It could have been Crenlo in Rochester, but I don't know. I remember the name of the company that made the AC 8000 cab--------it was McLaughlin Body Co. in Moline, Illinois. They could have built the White cabs as well. The cabs on the 4-150 were made by Crenlo. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: hillmonkey
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 7:30pm
| mark, thanks for answering all the questions. i know much of this you covered in the past but i love reading it again. |
Posted By: JimIA
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 7:34pm
|
I know a guy who worked on the assembly line in Charles City the day they started building White tractors. The factory employees threw a fit and would not assemble a tractor unless it was green and said Oliver on the hood. Management finally said assemble the tractors or get another job, so they went back to work. There is remains of one of those state of the art tractors at the Floyd County museum and an engine as well. The engine had an injection pump driven off the back of the engine and the tractor had a different 3 speed transmission. They were also testing a CVT. I do have pictures of the prototype Oliver if anyone would want to see them. On the AC side of things I remember the one gentleman who spoke at the GOTO in Union Grove mentioned how he was scouting companies to buy the Ag division. There were talks with John Deere but they were not doing too well either. He also spoke with a friend at Fiat who owned Hesston at the time. He asked if they would be interested. That person said Fiat's history with AG business in America was never a real profit business and they had no interest in expanding it at the time. Funny how things change! ------------- An open eye is much more observant than an open mouth |
Posted By: jiminnd
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 7:41pm
|
I just toured the Floyd county museum in March, didn't get to spend as much time as I wanted in the Oliver part of it as my wife was along, but that is a great museum I would go back to again if in that area. ------------- 1945 C, 1949 WF and WD, 1981 185, 1982 8030, unknown D14(nonrunner) |
Posted By: matador
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 8:03pm
|
I didn't know McLaughlin made the 8000-Series cabs. I know that they made the cab on our Deere 6600 combine. It seems like a nice cab... The White cab seems to be a really nice, tight unit, though. I don't know much about the dealer- this was all I could find: http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=oliver&th=94869" rel="nofollow - http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=oliver&th=94869 I assume that it's an early 2-105- the cab serial number is in the 800s. I'll have to figure out if that's the number of the cab, or the tractor. Photos from the Floyd County Museum would be great! When I get to IA sometime, I'll have to stop in. Thanks for spreading the wealth of knowledge! |
Posted By: JimIA
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 9:17pm
|
Heres some pictures of the museum. http://s44.photobucket.com/user/jimacman/media/Oliver%20museum/Olivermusuem16.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  Prototype engine http://s44.photobucket.com/user/jimacman/media/Oliver%20museum/Olivermusuem8.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  http://s44.photobucket.com/user/jimacman/media/Oliver%20museum/Olivermusuem9.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  http://s44.photobucket.com/user/jimacman/media/Oliver%20museum/Olivermusuem11.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  Drivetrain http://s44.photobucket.com/user/jimacman/media/Oliver%20museum/Olivermusuem7.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  http://s44.photobucket.com/user/jimacman/media/Oliver%20museum/Olivermusuem6.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  Both the drivetrain and styling reminded me of Case. Who was first? http://s44.photobucket.com/user/jimacman/media/Oliver%20museum/Olivermusuem13.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  Few other museum pics. http://s44.photobucket.com/user/jimacman/media/Oliver%20museum/Olivermuseum4.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  http://s44.photobucket.com/user/jimacman/media/Oliver%20museum/Olivermuseum1.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  http://s44.photobucket.com/user/jimacman/media/Oliver%20museum/Olivermusuem3.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  ------------- An open eye is much more observant than an open mouth |
Posted By: AC 426 power
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 9:21pm
|
That Oliver prototype looks like 70 series case |
Posted By: AC 426 power
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 10:03pm
|
Oh I seen were you said that too lol |
Posted By: Jordan(OH)
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 10:29pm
| Was the 8000 chassis designed with the possibility of using a different engine or would that have been changed as needed? |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 10:36pm
The 8000 chassis was little different than the 7000 as I recall. The biggest difference was the modifications to the final drive for FWA. There wasn't any special consideration given to installing a different engine. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: matador
Date Posted: 10 May 2015 at 11:15pm
|
That does look a lot like a Case 970! That has to be a neat machine to see- it would be really neat to see the whole thing, but I'm amazed that they have that much of it. The more I look at that drawing, the more I see Case. I know Shameless may kill me for saying this, but I think the production Whites (Like the 2-105) look a fair amount like the shape of a John Deere 30 Series (Such as the 4230). The Whites were definitely a beautiful tractor for the time. I think the Allis 8000 series has them beat in the looks department, but that was still a few years off.. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 7:19am
|
When I read about Jim talking about the prototype engine, I figured it would have been something out of the Hercules plant, since White had bought that, and had a huge expansion, only to sell it off to MF/Perkins. But once I saw pictures, it looks like a Waukesha. It would be cool to see the number on the injection pump tag. It looks like a run of the mill Roosa DB. I too also thought the Whites resembled the 30 series Deere. If all you could see was the shadow, you'd never know which was which lol! ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:10am
It was actually similar to the MM 1050 tractor styling.  ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: jorstad brothers
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 10:13am
|
on the 8000 cabs why are the hyd levers behind the center of the seat? the 7000s are centered. which i thought was much better. thanks ------------- remember plunder than burn |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 10:57am
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: matador
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 12:57pm
| I can see the similarities. he cab really seals the Case look for me, though. |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 3:05pm
|
I wonder if an ex Case stylist worked of the new model?
------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 5:26pm
We mocked up the console and had a number of different sized people sit in it. That seemed the best place at the time. And access through the RH door was part of the equation. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 5:43pm
I don't know when or who did the rendering. However, when Bunkie Knutson became CEO of White Motor (after being fired from Ford), he brought along a well know stylist, Larry Shinoda. He was quite a character and fun to work with. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Shinoda" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Shinoda Does anyone remember the hood ornament that was on the front of the first White Farm tractors? It was a take-off of the Lincoln hood ornament and Larry meant it to be a middle figure salute to Ford.  The cab in the rendering is really pretty generic. Most of the cabs in that era looked much the same if sitting by themselves and painted black---------once the firewall was moved forward for ease of entry and the windshield sloped back for style. The obvious exception was the round front Deere (about as hard to get into as the 7000 Series cabs), but they couldn't move their firewall forward because of their screwy "mid" engine location. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: Peterson
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 6:20pm
|
7000 series that could have been! http://s460.photobucket.com/user/17cumminsboy/media/IMG_104576574044943_zpsvk7u9aah.jpeg.html" rel="nofollow">  ------------- 7095-685I at 255hp, 8070-225HP,8050-210Hp,8030 with 155HP,220 with 670T engine with A-pump, 7580, 185 with 140HP, 2-6080's,6070, S4 D17,wd45,CA,st34 agco, S1 D17 with 3500MK2 |
Posted By: AC 426 power
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 8:31pm
|
That's a neat picture looks sharp |
Posted By: Allis 8050
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 8:37pm
|
[QUOTE=peterson]7000 series that could have been! http://s460.photobucket.com/user/17cumminsboy/media/IMG_104576574044943_zpsvk7u9aah.jpeg.html" rel="nofollow"> [/QU OTE] what book is that pic from ------------- AC C, D-15,D-15II,ONE-SEVENTY,185,200,7010,8010,8030,8050 AGCO LT90a, AGCO RT130 and GLEANER R55 |
Posted By: Peterson
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 8:51pm
|
Dont know. Seen it on Facebook. Love to have the book. ------------- 7095-685I at 255hp, 8070-225HP,8050-210Hp,8030 with 155HP,220 with 670T engine with A-pump, 7580, 185 with 140HP, 2-6080's,6070, S4 D17,wd45,CA,st34 agco, S1 D17 with 3500MK2 |
Posted By: EricPA
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 8:54pm
did not know that! motor home frames for who? ------------- Life is tough,but it's tougher when you're stupid. - John Wayne |
Posted By: ILGLEANER
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:25pm
|
The Deere cab was just as dumb to get into as the 7000 series cab. Then look at that center post all day long. I always told my Deere buddies that is why they planted crooked, they couldn't see out. IG ------------- Education doesn't make you smart, it makes you educated. |
Posted By: ryan(IN)
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:27pm
|
The pic of the 7000 series with an 8000 cab is from Norm Swindfords book. ------------- ryan 1984 8070 FWA,1979 7060,1975 7040,1971 190,1960 D-17D,1957 D-14, 196? D-19G, 1975 5040,1971? 160,1994 R62 |
Posted By: JimIA
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:58pm
I remember the first time I saw that emblem on a White I thought a farmer had taken off of a Lincoln but here it was the designer! lol That explains that. Jim ------------- An open eye is much more observant than an open mouth |
Posted By: JimIA
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 10:03pm
Did you notice the location of the pump Ed? I don't know if it was on a production engine before but I remember when the Agcos and New Hollands had them on Cummins engines a few years ago it was the latest and greatest. At least until they came out with the common rail. ------------- An open eye is much more observant than an open mouth |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 10:04pm
And looking through the curved glass would make a straight row looked crooked. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: JimIA
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 10:07pm
The picture is from Norm Swinford's "A guide to Allis-Chalmers farm tractors". Great read, a fair amount of prototype pictures. The 7060 pictured is my favorite tractor prototype picture. That thing is sharp!!! http://www.amazon.com/guide-Allis-Chalmers-farm-tractors/dp/0929355784/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1431399577&sr=1-3&keywords=norm+swinford" rel="nofollow - Link to Norm Swinford book ------------- An open eye is much more observant than an open mouth |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 10:20pm
|
JimIA, Thanks for the link to Norm Swinford's book. I just ordered a copy. I wasn't aware that it was available in paperback. |
Posted By: catfish_447
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 11:08pm
|
This is a great read, thanks 427, I know I've read your posts before on some of the same stuff, glad to read them again. And hats off for the design of the 8000 cabs! Much better than the 7000's and light years ahead of everyone else at the time! ------------- '53 WD, '35 WC At some point in your life you will need a doctor, lawyer or possibly a politician. But for every day of your life, three meals a day, you will need a farmer. |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 12:29am
|
EricPA, I know JD made frames for Winnebago, maybe others. Later, in the 90's they were building running gears for those bus kind of vehicle that looks like a street car. Don't think they have JD engines. Rode on one in El Paso, TX 20 years ago or so, driver said they were having some problems with them, don't remember what. Thanks 427 for all the info on White, etc.! ------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: bdallman
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 9:01am
|
Ha! That pic of the 7000 with 8000 cab came from me. the carpet in the pic gave it away! Lol..I love norm Swinfords book! Anybody with a love for AC should have a copy. Thanks Brett ------------- 1954 CA, 1952 WD with Freeman Loader,1955 WD45, 1963 D19 Gas, 1984 620H, 1980’s AC Forklift, 66 All Crop Harvester, White Top Roto Baler, Misc S.C. Equip and AC Collectibles. |
Posted By: wekracer
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 11:13am
| Very interesting post. Thanks for all the good info. I would have loved to have been there for all of that. AC went out of business when I was 5. |
Posted By: matador
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 11:33am
| Wow! That cab makes the 7060 quite a looker! |
Posted By: Michael V (NM)
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 2:34pm
 this is what I done to my 8010, their not perfect by a long ways, but their a lot more easy on the arm and shoulder when moving a lot of bales
|
Posted By: GWS
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 9:32pm
| I can't help but wonder how hard would it be to mount an 8000 series cab onto a 7000 series. It does look good. Would it take a factory full of engineers and mechanics? |
Posted By: Spud
Date Posted: 16 May 2015 at 11:00am
|
How did the study go on mounting the Deutz engine in an 8000 series tractor? That would have been an interesting tractor and would have done the company a lot better then what they did.
|
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 16 May 2015 at 11:13am
It didn't go very far. I met with one of their engineers over in the Allis corporate building and went over general things like bell housing mounting patterns, stress on the engine block from loads being transferred through the frame to the engine etc. Once Deutz decided to close the tractor plant, why mess around with putting their engine in the AC tractor for a year. Yes, the Krauts handled things very badly. A Deutz engine in an orange West Allis designed tractor would have been much, much easier to sell and get people used to their air-cooled engines. By the way, their engines were not that great in many ways. Despite claims to good fuel efficiency, their bare engine fuel consumption was nothing special. Their tractors got good fuel efficiency at Nebraska testing, but those tractors had no power shift capabilities and weak hydraulic systems---------both of which decrease fuel economy as measured at Nebraska. Related story: Minneapolis-Moline had two hydraulic systems in the 60's and 70's. One was a simple, relatively low volume gear pump used on the wheatland tractors that had a low hp draw. The row crop tractors had a much higher capacity system (closed center) that had a higher hp draw when not in use. Guess which one we took to Nebraska for testing?? ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 16 May 2015 at 9:49pm
|
Assuming you are not using the hydraulics on the tractor with the closed center system, why would that tractor have a high horsepower draw? The whole idea behind closed center was when there is no call for hydraulic power, the pump goes into no-stroke mode and consumes very little horsepower????
------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 16 May 2015 at 10:40pm
That's what sales claimed, anyway. Still a hydraulic system with both a high flow and high pressure capability, consumes some hp at standby. A gear or gerotor pump with a relatively low flow rate and minimal lines and remote valves requires less parasitic hp. Anyway, that was the case in the 60's with the MM pumps. Their closed center piston pump wasn't as advanced as AC's------------it stopped pumping, but maintained the full system pressure. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: xr4ticlone
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2016 at 11:38pm
|
We've got an 8070, 8010, 7060 (maroon belly) and all have been great tractors. We're big German's so the 7000 series cabs are not much fun to get in and out of for us...but they've been good machines (had a 7000 before). I'd love to put an 8000 cab on the 7060...but I'm sure cost would be insane vs just buying a 8050. I've really enjoyed reading your posts. Thank you very much. It seemed that A/C was way ahead in product development, but struggled with marketing/sales/dealer management. I had a customer buy an 8010 from a junk yard to rebuild as a winter project. He was shocked when he realized it was basically the same cab as his 8300 deere. He said "I'm trying to figure out why I didn't buy one of these instead of the 4040 I bought...this is so much nicer" : ). As for Cummins (I work for a Case CE dealer in sales) but as I understood the relationship from Case's side, the off road production of engines was theirs. On-road was Cummin's (Consolidated Diesel) so I'm a little shocked Cummins even approached A/C. Although it would have been cool.
|
Posted By: JCFarms
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2016 at 8:29am
Can't see the picture anymore, Michael V (NM) |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2016 at 1:13pm
Now that said alot the only good thing about the Same we bought in the early 80s wa the deutz motor. The rest of that tractor belonged in the scrap metal factory on day 1. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2016 at 1:43pm
|
Mark this is a great read. I would be interested in hearing more about your thoughts on the deutz 912 serries. That is what Same used in the 105 we had and that 6 cylinder diesel was the most efficient of the tractors we had one was an old case 100hp form the 70s I don't remember the model and the other was an ih 986. Of the 3 the deutz was alot more efficient just sitting on our pto generator. But that Same was the biggest pos I have ever seen they couldn't even make a gear shift lever that wouldn't break off in your hand when you shifted the tractor. Honest to god we had to replace them every 4 years or so. I have always liked air cooled diesel engines simply because you don't have a coolant system to fail or freeze. I have toyed with the idea of putting one in my farmall h or in a d17. I might do the farmall h for real. That seems like a cool project and I really don't want another gas tractor to feed. What is your take on air cooled diesel motors? I have one of those cheap little Chinese 10 hp diesel engines in a little case ingersoll 448 that I have used to rake hay with all summer that is the coolest little tractor it burns almost no fuel and does a great job with my rake. Anyway i really enjoyed reading the allis chalmers history and hearing about what they looked into doing. |
Posted By: Michael V (NM)
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2016 at 9:04pm
| JCFarms, I sent you a PM |
Posted By: macvette
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2016 at 7:56pm
|
Mark: I have really, really, enjoyed this storyline. So very great that we still have a few of you actual AC people that can fill these storylines with actual data! Keep 'em coming.
|
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2016 at 8:53pm
| Don'tcha just love the sound of a Detroit in a Case or a Oliver and wish a D21 had that sound. |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2016 at 9:28pm
| Mark, thanks for sharing your AC work experiences. Yes, this topic is a great read. Interesting times with Deutz in 1984. Also, I thought AC built their own cabs - not. What other tractor components were also hired out? |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2016 at 2:20pm
If I remember correctly, Cummins and Case had setup a separate company to produce the new B and C engines. Cummins had the right to sell those engines to anyone interested. It was in the best interests of both parties to get more and more of the those engines produced. At least Cummins wanted us to buy them very badly. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2016 at 2:26pm
I've never worked with any Deutz engine-----------just reviewed the BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption) curves that they published. Nothing spectacular in them. Most people don't realize that Deutz depended heavily on their oil cooling system to keep their engines cool. The Chinese have gotten pretty good at building small air cooled engines-----------there are lots used in Asia. As a side note, the small Lombardini diesel engine used in the 1984 and 1985 Allis and Simplicity garden tractors is a fine air cooled engine. Built like a jewel and sips fuel also. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2016 at 2:28pm
They did at LaPorte for the 6000, 7000, and 8000 tractors until LaPorte was closed. That happened before West Allis was shut down. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2016 at 2:35pm
|
Lombardini diesel engine used in the 1984 and 1985 Allis and Simplicity garden tractors is a fine air cooled engine. Built like a jewel and sips fuel also. Now that is sort of funny I have a lombardini in my pasquali from that vintage that I need to rebuild. It half the reason I like the air cooled diesel motors. I wanted to put one of them on my farmall h but the rpm range is totally wrong they spin up about 3200rpm. If memory serves me right. I have been thinking about the 4 cylinder onan diesel used on the military generators. I know what you mean about the deutz depending on the oil it is even listed as oil cooled in alot of places. As I said the only thing I know about them is the one we had was better then the ih 986 from the same time frame. Always figured that was because the deutz had a fuel return line at the injectors and the ih didn't. I am not sure the onan which is a lister design is very efficient maybe if I go that route I should try and track down a lombardini. They are just more rare and expensive. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2016 at 3:09pm
| The factory cab for the model 200 tractor (and also 210/220) was also LaPorte built. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2016 at 5:12pm
|
The 986 has a fuel return at the pump and injectors. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2016 at 5:16pm
| Well I was a kid maybe it was the case which didn't have one at the injector. Either way they both burned alot more fuel on the generator then the same. As I said I remember that cause it was the only good thing about that tractor. |