AC 620 fail to engage starter
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Garden Tractors
Forum Description: A great place to discuss the Simplicity and Allis Chalmers Garden Models
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=105744
Printed Date: 26 Nov 2024 at 11:37am
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Topic: AC 620 fail to engage starter
Posted By: macvette
Subject: AC 620 fail to engage starter
Date Posted: 05 May 2015 at 8:16pm
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D- 17 Dave helped me a couple of years ago to wire a relay into the system to eliminate the fail to engage starter. This has worked almost flawlessly - until today. Started and ran earlier today without a problem. Oil lite comes on when key turns on. Hot lite comes on when key turned to start, fuel pump starts, just like it did when starting normally. Have turned on and off both pto switches with key on - both engage and disengage when turned off. Lites work. Neutral safety switch was bypassed years ago by previous owner. Clutch pushed in or out does not make a difference. Can hear a click from dash area once I have kept key turned to start for a while. This makes no difference. Any ideas of where to turn next? ( I am somewhat electrical/, but nothing like Steve in NJ or Gerald J. or others on this site.) which means if it gets too complicated with electrical numbers, I am too dumb to follow!! LOL. Thanks. |
Replies:
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 06 May 2015 at 10:13am
| reach down in the corner with some needle nose and pull the key wire off the starter soliniod with test light probe that plug turn key to start and see if test light lights up allso check voltage there if it lights up is that means your soleniod is not working you have to pull the engine so do a complete starter job weather you have it rebiult or new you can plug wire back in and with key on take a peice of flat bar short across batt on starter and starter on the nuts try not to hit the threads and see iff it cranks or spins could be a relay failure if on has been added but you need to check for power at that key wire first to see wich way you go |
Posted By: macvette
Date Posted: 06 May 2015 at 8:17pm
| Thanks, Mike. Will try. |
Posted By: macvette
Date Posted: 07 May 2015 at 1:13pm
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Wire to starter solenoid is hard wired, but checked "start" terminal on ignition switch when in the start position, test light goes on. Was able to get test lite on battery side of solenoid, and is hot. Got test lite probe on the switch side of solenoid, and not hot when ignition switch is turned to start. Tried a new relay without success. Wondering if I could run a wire direct from start position of switch to the switch side of solenoid? If I can find the correct white switch wire running to solenoid, maybe can tap into that. Trying to solve the problem without pulling the engine. Any thoughts? Thanks.
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Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 08 May 2015 at 8:33am
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Wouldn't surprise me if it was the Ignition switch itself. We sell quite a few Ignition switches for the 616-720 Tractors. A lot of goofy things go on when the switches start acting up. Customer replaces the switch and problems go away. Not saying for sure thats your particular problem, but the Indak switches mess up from time to time especially if they have a lot of time on them being in service. There's quite a bit of load on that little switch with lights, electric pto's, charging issues, and so on. A couple relays in the system on the pto's side would benefit the system quite a bit which would lighten the load on the Ignition switch. I've done that with my own 620. The electrical system is far from stock in my 620 though. I also installed 4 way flashers in my 620 when out in the street plowin' snow at the mouth of the driveway so I don't git' my butt run over... HTH Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: macvette
Date Posted: 08 May 2015 at 8:42am
| Steve - Do you think it could still be the switch even tho when putting a test lite on the "start" terminal of the switch, the lite goes on when the key is turned to start? |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 08 May 2015 at 2:26pm
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Gently shake the key while in the "crank" mode. Light might go out.. ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: macvette
Date Posted: 08 May 2015 at 8:38pm
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Will try that. Thanks Steve. |
Posted By: macvette
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 10:32am
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Steve: Vigorously moved key while in start mode, but test lite stayed on. Bummer. Thought I might have an easy fix.
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Posted By: macvette
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 4:09pm
| bump |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:00pm
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Have the same problem most times on a 616. I have short rod and tap the end of the starter and it engages. Learned that from Bill at Sandy Lake ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: Toscani NE SD
Date Posted: 11 May 2015 at 9:21pm
| I too tap on the end of my starter to get it going,been doing that for years |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 7:43am
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Now that's pretty interesting. Another glitch I just learned about with these 616-720 machines. Coarse, the way they have the wiring designed, that could be a number of things causing that situation. Merle, Your machine doesn't crank over at all even with all the tests you did? ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: macvette
Date Posted: 12 May 2015 at 12:02pm
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Steve: No, doesn't seem to get any power from the "start" position on the ignition switch to the solinoid. (have had a test lite on it with the switch in start position) The battery side of the solinoid is hot, so doesn't appear the battery side is the problem. Still have the hot terminal going to the relay that I installed with D-17 Daves info, so that hasn't changed. (I have already tried a new relay) Rats! 'Course these things always happen when you need to use something, right?
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Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 6:29am
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Sounds like its a ground problem. Did you clean the Battery cables on both ends? Also, most relays self ground. Your relay might have lost its ground. Run an auxiliary ground wire off one of the mounting bolts to the relay and run it to the ground terminal on the Battery. Your loosing a ground somewhere sounds like to me. ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: macvette
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 7:57am
| Yep, had the battery cables off and cleaned. (except the end that I can't get to on the starter). The relay was originally installed with a ground wire to a mounting bolt on the frame, but I will now run a wire from that ground to the battery and try that. Thanks. |
Posted By: macvette
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 3:38pm
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Steve: Ran a new ground wire from relay to battery - cleaned up battery cables, battery, ground for battery again. No difference. Did take a rod and hit end of starter - no difference. Getting desperate now. Took the always hot wire to the relay, made up a jumper to run from that hot wire, unplugged relay wire to solenoid. Plugged wire in to hot wire - solenoid kicked starter in immediately. Now - if I run a wire direct from the "start" ignition terminal to the solenoid wire instead of going thru the relay, is there a reason this wouldn't work? What size fuse should I put in line if this would work? Thanks.
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Posted By: macvette
Date Posted: 14 May 2015 at 8:05am
| bump |
Posted By: macvette
Date Posted: 15 May 2015 at 12:26am
| bump |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 15 May 2015 at 7:41am
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No reason why it wouldn't work. In my "620 panel" thread, I mentioned about how power is run back n' forth though the system and pto switches which makes for hair pullin' troublehooting. To many things in the circuit to have a problem. The main reason why I re-designed the system in my 620. Way over engineered! Its a freakin' Garden Tractor! I know its for safety, but one can get overwhelmed just trying to start the damn Tractor! LOL! ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 15 May 2015 at 8:44am
| i am with you on that clutch or nutral swicth is enought let everything power up with a relay |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 15 May 2015 at 8:36pm
Merle, I can solve your problem for good real easy. I come up with my truck, hand you some cash and you put the 620 on my truck. Problem solved  Charlie ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: macvette
Date Posted: 18 May 2015 at 10:49pm
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Charlie: I solved the problem for you - ran that wire from the start terminal to the solenoid with a fuse in line, and kicks in every time - so I guess we won't need your truck and cash to solve the problem! LOL! Can still come up here and see my few AC, but won't need to bring your truck - unless you have any category 0 three point attachments that you don't want, and you would be very welcome to store them up here! Merle
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Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 19 May 2015 at 10:20am
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Glad you got it going. I thought I had a safety switch problem on my Crapsman mower. Turned out the exhaust rocker arm was broken in two. Just got the new part so some assembly will be required today. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 19 May 2015 at 11:46am
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The 720 that I bought a year ago, when you first turn the key to start it. the starter engages but sounds like the battery is almost dead or bad cable, but just hold the key and suddenly it starts turning over like new and starts. It has been re-powered with a Brigs engine. It appears that all safty switches are by pasted, because they never give any problem, I didn't know there are/were some. Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |