HD16 - info please
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=101520
Printed Date: 24 Sep 2024 at 1:52pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: HD16 - info please
Posted By: AC7060IL
Subject: HD16 - info please
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 4:10pm
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I'm a farm tractor guy, so I still learning about dozers. I looked at an Allis-Chalmers HD16 dozer in Missouri today. It was equipped with a huge front blade & rear drawbar only. No winches or pto. It has been sitting outside since 1980s. Engine had a steel plate covering the exhaust manifold. Exhaust manifold had a 1/4" rusted hole just forward of the upright but was under cover by hood. I'm thinking if any moisture got in that hole, it would have to be blowing rain or snow... Owner had it pull started and Engine runs, clutches, brakes, & transmission works. It drives ok. The undercarriage is needing replaced (drive sprockets, rollers, track chain). It hard to tell about final drives. They aren't leaking oil now, but who knows as time goes. All hydraulic hoses need replaced. What year is it? What does it weigh with blade? What's it worth? Thanks. tractor serial number: HD16DC-7266engine serial number: 16000 (no turbo) Is this an early 844 that had crankshaft issues? blade model number: 16HS blade serial number: 2826 |
Replies:
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 6:14pm
| HD16G #7266 is 1965. Don't know for sure about the motor... |
Posted By: Mactractor
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 9:21pm
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None of the earlier 844`s had bottom end issues. It was the very last 844`s (25000 engines) that had the issues. As I understand it, the troublesome engines had Japanese made 6 counterweight crankshafts. The engines with 12 counterweight US made cranks gave no trouble at all. I`ve heard nothing but good about HD16DC tractors |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 6:29am
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the motors were supposedly changed to 16000H in 64' so i dont know if this tractor somehow still had the earlier engine or if it was swapped in later as a replacement. I have a 16D parts tractor with a lanova engine in it, so swaps are done. this issue with the straight 16000 is the the journals on the crank are smaller than the 16000H and later motors. bearings are not easy to find. also the compression height of the piston and connecting rods are different than 64' and later engines. pistons no longer available. the double reduction finals are strong. unless its leaking profusely and clunking, shouldnt be anything wrong. sprockets can be replaced with new, but track and rollers could be a problem. http://www.hendersonmfgco.com/parts/parts_weld_on_sprocket_rims.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.hendersonmfgco.com/parts/parts_weld_on_sprocket_rims.htm i know a guy who once owned 16's and used them in construction and quarries. he never said anything bad about them, in fact he remembered how well they pushed and said they just wouldnt stall. 34,000lbs bare tractor so probably 36-38K with blade.
------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 9:34am
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CAL(KS), 16000H may be correct. The engine id plate was pretty pitted, so reading it was difficult. I could make out the 16000 but there was something else stamped after it. Now, after reading your post, I took another look at my phone camera pic for it. 16000H. |
Posted By: Mactractor
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 1:27pm
| When you asked about crankshaft issues, I thought you were refering to the cracks and breakages of the 25000 engines |
Posted By: ACjack
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 7:09pm
The Japanese cranks where no match in quality to the 12 weight US made cranks.
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Mactractor wrote:Posted By: hd16b
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2015 at 11:41am
| I have my 1975 16b all torn down and has the 6 counterweight crank,wish it had the other but what can you do.would love to post pictures but don't know how. |
Posted By: Mactractor
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2015 at 4:04pm
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12 weight shafts with matching conrod/piston assemblies from 16, 19, 21 thou engines have been used as replacements to end the sleepless nights, but increasingly popular is repowering with the well proven Cummins big cam 855, which I dare say will be easy to gets parts for in future. Heavy Equipment Forums featured a 16B repower a while back |
Posted By: hd16b
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2015 at 6:21pm
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On a different note, I am in the process of rebuilding the engine in my machine and have found everything except new rod bolts, can anyone help me out |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2015 at 8:00pm
| Thanks everyone for your helpful inputs. Scrap man isn't getting this one. I purchased it from owner today. I will post pics when I get it hauled home. Its torque converter is missing heat exchanger hoses, so converter may need serviced or rebuilt? Illini AC carry any parts for that project? |
Posted By: ACjack
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2015 at 8:16pm
Try ARP fastners. They make all kinds of thread fastners and all of the professional racers use them. |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2015 at 9:35pm
| Yesterday, I replaced its batteries and tried starting it. At first the starter would only click hard without engaging bendix. I screwdriver jumped the motor to find it in good running order. Just could not get the starter to engage. After about 40 minutes of clicking & tapping starter with hammer it engaged. To my surprise the 16000H turn about 1/4-1/2 turn and came alive. It did not smoke or miss. It's throttle response is incredible for a non-turbo diesel. After it warmed up for 15 minutes, I put it in gear. While lifting blade left cylinders hose blew & front grill hyd pump area began to leak. Steering was not good. I traveled about 50' then torque converter began to heat up & slip. I still got lots of work to do to it... But if I sat outside for 30 years I would have issues too. That AC 844 Engine is fantastic! |
Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2015 at 9:17am
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Good on you. Not too many can say they have a HD16DC anymore... Now you are unique amongst your neighbors! Time to get some grease on your sandwiches. |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2015 at 10:12am
 
  Now that the engine starts & runs, I need to drain Torque Converter (TC) fluid (milky brown gunk on dipstick). There is a fluids/grease plaque on the left battery's front panel that tells what each system requires for fluid. TC is listed as ATF, not diesel. I will need to unbolt belly guard to drain TC reservoir and clean suction screen. I have thought perhaps I could remove TC oil filter, start engine and let idle, & let it pump fluid out that way? Anyone do this in a way that removes most fluid at one time?
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Posted By: Mactractor
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2015 at 1:41pm
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The Twin Disc converter in my 11 has a drain plug right down the bottom facing rearward which is difficult to get at because its just about on the big curved frame crossmember. I repaced the hex head one with an inhex to make it a bit easier to screw in and out using flexi sockets. Draining is messy as the fluid runs onto the big crossmember, but it drains the converter thoroughly. I refill through the ports to the heat exchanger. The bearings in the converter nearly all ballrace, with a special one in the sprag clutch. You DONT want to run it low on oil. |
Posted By: Dgrader
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2015 at 7:02pm
| AC7060IL, that dozer looks pretty good for sittin out for 30 yrs. Good find. Looks like your gonna become an experienced dozer man. |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2015 at 9:18pm
| Thank you all for your suggestions and good remarks about this HD16DC dozer. My initial thought about buying it was to just salvage the engine. I must admit, the little distance that have operated this huge machine has caused much excitement in me. I could see myself clearing fence rows, digging a small lake, or pulling a field tile plow in the future with this beast of a dozer. One step at a time though. |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2015 at 12:52am
| Norms book states that in 1965 only 36 HD16s were built. Do you think he was refering to AG only or would that be construction & AG?? |
Posted By: ac_sd
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2015 at 1:20am
| It looks good, that under-carriage doesn't look too bad either by your pictures... Good for you! |
Posted By: ACcrazy
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2015 at 8:12am
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HD16s rule! Love those machines. Any updates?? |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2015 at 4:50pm
| Haven't done anything to it since I last posted. The cold weather shut me down. Now that it's warmed back up I need to get back at it. |
Posted By: hd16b
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2015 at 8:23pm
| I know where one just like it is sitting and the owner is trying to sell it in eastern nc |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2015 at 9:29pm
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i really like my cable blade and direct drive 16 and would love to find a hydraulc machine with converter or PS ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: Eric B
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2015 at 12:17am
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The factory brochure has the HD16DC at 44220 Lbs. with the dozer blade on. ------------- Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal! |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2015 at 7:50am
| Recent heavy rains have allowed me some time to finally get back to this dozer. I am in process of replacing blade lift cylinder rubber hyd hoses that route from front pump/valves to cylinders. I used my 706b forklift to safely lift, unchain, & lower the dozer blade. Took off dozer front nose grill to access hyd valve/pump assy. After the blade lowered, I noticed some pitting on blade cyl rams. I emery clothed them to smooth them & see how deep pits were. Not terrible, but wondered what others do about ram pitting? I'll try & post some pics later. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2015 at 8:44am
| Crazy as it sounds,Belzona makes a product they claim will"fix" your rods.I used some of their stuff on my 8070 spindles.The vertical part had excessive wear on the half that carries the load(top and bottom).Roughed area up more with angle grinder and applied Belzona and had machined round thinking no way will this hold/work.Installed new bushings and spindles.Still no play with axle jacked up after 3 yrs/200hrs.Aint gonna take them apart to see how they look,just doin the jack up test from time to time.Figured I didn't have much to loose.... |
Posted By: Eric B
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2015 at 12:58pm
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If you're not after perfection and it's a part time machine those rams will probably serve you well for a good bit of time. The trick is doing the emery cloth treatment before the seals take damage from the sharp edges of the tiny pitting. If it amounts to a gallon of hydraulic oil over a couple of years .....just do the cost comparison to re-chroming or new rams? ------------- Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal! |
Posted By: DonBC
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2015 at 3:42pm
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Yeah, don't go the re-chroming route unless you are prepared to spend lots of money. I took a ram from my D grader into a hydraulic repair shop to have the leaking seals replaced. When I went to pick it up the bill was something like $500. I said there has to be a mistake. They said no, the ram was pitted so they re-chromed it. Didn't someone call you to ask approval they said. No and I wouldn't have approved. They did give me a generous discount but it was still a shock. I could have bought a lot of hydraulic fluid for what it cost. ------------- Jack of all trades, master of none |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2015 at 5:28pm
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Here in Oz the cost of getting a whole new rod made up isn't too bad. I've just had issues with one of the ripper cylinders on our FA 10. Got away with a thread insert for the piston nut at about $A150. A whole new rod would have been around $350. |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2015 at 11:30am
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Thanks everyone for helpful replies. The pitted rams cleaned up ok - no torn seals yet. I got the blade lift cylinder's hoses replaced & one valve fitting. It lifted the blade nicely after all those fixes. It has the optional blade tilt cylinder on the left side. It works good too. My brother showed up to load & transport it home with his semi. We had to add 5 gal hyd oil to torque convertor to get it to crawl right. Turning it was a challenge as it's left/right hand clutches would only operate if I first pushed accompanying foot brake. I got it loaded onto his detach trailer, but felt like I needed two more hands to operate everything. Its home now. My brother told my wife, "He'll never be the same from now on. He's got a dozer now and that changes everything." He's right. This dozer needs tlc, but its just so dang fun to operate. I enjoy working on it also. When it's running, the sound of its engine is captivating. My daughter & her friend sat on it and I started it up for them. They had the same expression about how its sounds.. I hope I can get it operational enough to do some real dirt or tree pushing. Im working on getting some photos attached, but my phone's pics are being a PITA.
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Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2015 at 11:49am
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Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2015 at 5:18pm
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Mactractor Re crankshafts There is a little nest of Allis dozers around here - HD16 and earlier HD21's and I doubt that any have 25000 type engines. But crank cracking is a common problem mentioned. One owner tried about 4 cranks (including one with a tested tag) before he got a useable one for a HD16DP. |
Posted By: Mactractor
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 4:56am
| Any idea how many hours those engines clocked up before the cranks went bad? |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 5:20am
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Mac Not really, but I'd guess plenty. My neighbour is away on an "expedition" but I'll quiz him when he gets back. He owns what might be a contender for the best working HD16DP in Oz. He is meticulous and has been through it from blade cutting edge to ripper boots. But the paint job is like your observation on the HD 15 thread earlier. BTW Know anything on Pacace rippers? - he hasn't found much |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 7:31pm
Here is a pic of the pitted ram after I emery clothed it. |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 7:36pm
This photo shows the HD16 running & its blade fully lifted after the front blade cylinders were cleaned up with emery cloth, 2 cylinder hoses replaced, front hydraulic fittings repaired, & 15 gallons of hydraulic fluid added.
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Posted By: Dgrader
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 8:27pm
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I'd say you are ready to rock and roll my friend. ------------- Ya cain't fix stupid. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 11:12pm
| That track has too much sag.That'll wear em too. |
Posted By: Eric B
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2015 at 6:27pm
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These machines have a commanding presence when they run. You don't have to make many "pushes" before you feel productive for the rest of the day. ------------- Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal! |
Posted By: Mactractor
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2015 at 7:24pm
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Running the 11EP on a still morning, the combustion bark emitted from the short bit of straight tubing atop the turbo, has brought old time skinners from two or three miles further down my valley up to take a look |
Posted By: ACcrazy
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2015 at 4:14pm
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Any chance you could get some video of it running/working? There isn't much at all in the way of vids online of the mighty HD-16. I think I've watched the 3 that I could find a hundred times.  |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2015 at 5:22pm
| This one of them? [TUBE]http://youtu.be/lujnXD8609M[/TUBE] |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 6:27am
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Yes DiyDave, mine sounds just like that - thanks for sharing the video. It's throttle response is impressive & always brings a smile to people within hearing distance. That low base tone of either high or low idle is there all the time :)
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Posted By: LANSDOWNE
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2015 at 9:00am
| I have lots of early HD16 parts 1959-1966, let me know what you need. |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2017 at 12:51pm
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I know this post is back in 2015 buy couldn't resist saying, I just purchased a 1961 HD16DC. Should be delivered this Friday. Geeked |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2017 at 12:53pm
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Hello LANSDOWNE. Scrolling through the forum and saw you old message that you had at that time a lot of old HD16 parts. Is that still the case? Not sure what I will be needed but taking possession of a 1961 HD16DC this Friday. Curious what kind of parts you might still have. Thank you. |
Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2017 at 6:34pm
| Don't be looking to hard for a answer,Lansdowne has not visited since July 2015. Need to learn to check the profile by clicking on user name. |
Posted By: ACcrazy
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 7:10am
Post up some pics of your new acquisition.  |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 8:02am
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I sure will. I have some already from my initial inspection but cannot get them posted. Telling me the file is too big when I am only trying to post one pic as an example. Any suggestions as to what i am doing wrong will be greatly appreciated. meeting halter to load her up tomorrow and get her home. |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 8:07am
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use paint and resize the pictures to 800x600. seems to work the best here that i have found. then upload to file manager. ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 8:49am
| Will give it a whirl and thank you |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 10:14am
| I resize mine as to pixel count, usually divide by four to get small enough to load into site. |