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Steve A 
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Joined: 12 Apr 2012
Location: NLP Mi
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 Topic: Pex rings vs Pex crimp cinch clamps
Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 2:36pm |
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Is one significantly better than the other? Brand differences? Hooking up a heat exchanger system for my workshop: Truck radiator hanging on wall, pex line and circulating pump to plate heat exchanger mounted to bottom of outside wood boiler. Have spent the better part of two days trying to get the cinch banding clamps to tighten up enough to not seep. I have used pex with cinch clamps before and not had this many issues....Beginning to think I could have done sweat connections and hard copper with less frustrations.
Thanks in advance!
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Tbone95
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Location: Michigan
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Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 3:04pm |
 Steve A wrote:
Is one significantly better than the other? Brand differences? Hooking up a heat exchanger system for my workshop: Truck radiator hanging on wall, pex line and circulating pump to plate heat exchanger mounted to bottom of outside wood boiler. Have spent the better part of two days trying to get the cinch banding clamps to tighten up enough to not seep. I have used pex with cinch clamps before and not had this many issues....Beginning to think I could have done sweat connections and hard copper with less frustrations.
Thanks in advance!
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So….a clamp with a screw you tighten versus a crimp ring? I’ve only ever used crimp rings and shark bite on PEX. I haven’t done a lot with it honestly. But never had a leak when I finished.
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plummerscarin
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Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 3:35pm |
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I see both. I have not seen an advantage of one over the other when done correctly. Tubing and clamp both need to set square on the fitting and tighten to spec. The install tool manual should give guidance to proper tension. Crimp rings have a go no go gauge. I never liked using cinch rings. Especially at the 1” size. I had to add extensions to the handles to get them tight. Cinch tool may be out of adjustment. As for screw clamps, they don’t work well with PEX because the tubing is much stiffer than a rubber hose.
Check your fittings for nicks or scratches. I remember Uponor fittings were highly sensitive to imperfections. There is also a fitting looks similar to the PEX crimp/cinch style fitting but is not compatible.
Edited by plummerscarin - 14 Dec 2023 at 3:50pm
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 3:41pm |
hmm..were the PEX clamps MADE for the PEX fittings ?? Was the PEX tool made for your PEX parts ? Is PEX tubing the right size ??
not trying to be 'smart' but I don't know if ALL PEX pieces are 100% fully compatible.
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Dakota Dave
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Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 3:57pm |
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the pet crimp ring work fantastic as long as you have pet fittings and a pex crimper you need to check with a no go gauge. If you transitioning from pex to anything else use a shark bite.
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DonBC
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Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 4:38pm |
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I have done both crimp rings and shark bite. Have to be very square to the pipe when clamping. Too cheap to buy the tool so use shark bite if only a couple of joints or borrow or rent the tool if there are several joints.
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Jack of all trades, master of none
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Steve A
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Joined: 12 Apr 2012
Location: NLP Mi
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Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 4:42pm |
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To answer the questions: These are called "cinch clamps". Slide them on there, crimp the protruding section down with a tool made to do it and theoretically don't leak. Using the tool I've used in the past, checked the adjustment. Apollo products, sold at HD. Fittings match the tube, match the clamps etc. Have not had an issue to this extent in the past, and have done water lines in two houses and radiant heat system. Usually I have no trouble. This time is different. I thought maybe because temp is in 30's, line not as flexible. So I warmed up fitting areas with a heat gun. Still leaked. Some worked, some didn't. Not sure why. In any case, you answered my question: Both should work, so I will try again tomorrow.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 4:49pm |
You got the pinch clamps and the right tool.. I wonder about the FITTINGS or TYPE "B" tube ??... Fittings slide in SNUG into the "B" tube.. If they are the wrong style or for something else, them may be 20 thousands (???) to small in diameter and not PINCH right.... or if your using "A" tubeing.
--------------- What Is PEX A?High-density polyethylene (HDPE) is cross-linked using the Engel method, which involves adding peroxides before the product is formed. This improves bonding at the atomic level and also allows for a higher degree of cross-linking. PEX A is: - More flexible, making it expandable and suited for fastening by cold expansion.
- Resistant to kinking that will make a pipe unusable.
- Installed with an expansion-style fitting.
Installation of PEX A piping requires an expansion tool. The fitting is larger in diameter, so you’ll need to enlarge the pipe and sleeve with the tool, then slide the fitting in. Once you remove the tool, the material will shrink back to normal size, tightening it around the fitting. What Is PEX B?A silane process, or steam or moisture cross-linking, is used to form PEX B pipe once the HDPE is extruded. The product is passed through steam. Meanwhile, a silane catalyst triggers cross-linking. PEX B is the most common PEX pipe. It offers the following benefits: - An expansion tool is not required to join PEX B pipe, making installation faster and simpler.
- The joining method is not affected by hot or cold temperatures.
- Meets the same ASTM standards as PEX A pipe.
Never try to expand the end of a PEX B pipe, as it is inflexible. The fittings are smaller as well, so pipe diameter is tighter at the joint. This increases resistance to flow, meaning the volume of water reaching fixtures is decreased. And since the joining method isn’t as ergonomic, fitting the pipe on the sleeve crooked is a risk, and can start a leak. To avoid this, the crimp tool must be square on the sleeve.
Edited by steve(ill) - 14 Dec 2023 at 4:56pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Steve A
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Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 5:26pm |
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Aha. Didn't know about B vs A. As far as cutting all of it, I'm using a tubing cutter to get it square and perpendicular, trying to make sure I have no "angled" ends. Thanks!
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Tim NH
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Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 6:41pm |
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Use a hair dryer and warm the pipe up where the connection will be. Ive found this works good in cold weather. Tim
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 8:11pm |
How do I know if my PEX is A or B?PEX-A will clearly say PEX-A, while PEX-B will say — you guessed it — PEX-B. Easy peasy. The second way is to identify the style of fittings. PEX-B will have metal rings — either cramp or clamp — whereas the PEX-A uses an expansion ring made out of PEX or a similar material.
Edited by steve(ill) - 14 Dec 2023 at 8:12pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Tracy Martin TN
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Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 9:35pm |
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I just fixed my younger sister's water line. It was pex and leaked . Found the leak by using a steel prod, water bubbled up. Dug down close to 2 feet, it leaked at a joint connected with shark bites. I think they arte a POS. Ground been really dry here, I think it pulled pex line from connector. I cut out about 10 inches and spliced a new piece of pex and used crimp type fittings. Takes special tool and fittings but seemed pretty good. HTH, Tracy
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tadams(OH)
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Posted: 15 Dec 2023 at 12:57pm |
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I done my house with pex and the metal fiting and wish I had used shark bite, I run and put Ts in and it has cut down the volume and pressure on my water.
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plummerscarin
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Posted: 15 Dec 2023 at 1:06pm |
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The crimp/cinch fittings are a smaller diameter than the tubing. That’s why I limit the number of outlets on a given line. For 1/2” no more than two. Length of run also has an effect. Farther away less volume. A development I worked in required all lines oversized due to low incoming pressure.
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DMiller
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Posted: 15 Dec 2023 at 2:20pm |
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Recently several friends that have used PEX in their homes have experienced Leaks, Some from mechanized clamps, some from Crimp Clamps, some from the most new fangled monster power squeeze collar crimper clamps. Some are seeing elbow or other plastic fittings failure and no demonstrable reasoning from any of the plumbers. Makes me seriously happy have Sweat Soldered Copper. Last buddy of mine with a home they built in the 80s HAD PEX, tore it ALL Out. Has the Next New Fangled Squeeze Crimp Copper piping., really satisfied will outlive him.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 15 Dec 2023 at 2:26pm |
neighbour gave me some 'cutoffs' of 1/2" PEX. I told him it's NOT 1/2", but 3/8". Tubing has always been the INSIDE diameter so much for 'truth in advertising'. I KNOW 1/2" copper will supply a great volume of water than '1/2" PEX'...
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plummerscarin
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Posted: 15 Dec 2023 at 3:41pm |
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Early on a particular brand of brass PEX fittings were failing after installation. Notably the branch of tee fittings. They could not tolerate any side loading. This occurred when bending a tube in from any direction other than straight on. Porous casting. Have not heard or seen plastic fittings fail(yet). Wirsbo potable water fittings are full size like the tubing and requires the tubing be expanded to install over the fitting so fewer sizing and flow restrictions.
Which brings up a point. The OP indicated using for a heating system. Potable water PEX piping is not a good choice for closed loop systems.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 15 Dec 2023 at 4:29pm |
I had CPVC piping put in 1979 ... Started leaking about 2005... Took it all out and put in PEX with brass fittings and the CINCH clamps.. Best thing i ever did.. Used 3/4 inch into the water heater and out to a HEADER... Have hot and cold headers with 6 valves on each that have 1/2 inch output to kitchen , bath, laundry room, etc.. 1/2 inch is plenty to supply a bathroom that is only 40 feet away. It will supply about 2-3 gpm easy ... and the new Showers and Toilets dont use half of that.
1/2 inch PEX is 5/8 on the OD and .470 on the ID ... almost 1/2 inch.... Same OD as copper TUBE.. they can use the same Shark Bite fittings.
Edited by steve(ill) - 16 Dec 2023 at 10:38pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Tbone95
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Posted: 15 Dec 2023 at 6:16pm |
jaybmiller wrote:
neighbour gave me some 'cutoffs' of 1/2" PEX. I told him it's NOT 1/2", but 3/8". Tubing has always been the INSIDE diameter so much for 'truth in advertising'. I KNOW 1/2" copper will supply a great volume of water than '1/2" PEX'...
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Hahaha…. Must not ever buy soft or refrigeration tubing. At stores where they handle both, if you ask for 1/2” copper tubes they ask ID or OD. Hopefully you never look at a pipe size chart under 1 inch sizes. That’ll really set you off.
Edited by Tbone95 - 15 Dec 2023 at 6:18pm
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Pat the Plumber CIL
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Posted: 15 Dec 2023 at 8:49pm |
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Here in the land of Lincoln they make you upsize the diameter required if you use pex . Where you ran a 1/2" copper line you now have to install a 3/4" pex line. With reduced flow at every fixture I personally don't see the need.
I have used both crimp / cinch type connectors for type B pex and have a Milwaukee expander tool for type A expansion pex . Prefer the expandable pex as it is more resistant to splitting from freezing. Also I have the tool but I believe it is a superior system. Crimp/cinch style are much cheaper,easier for a DIY'er .
Problem I have with any new "system " is the 3 more boxes of different fittings I get to stock and store. Today in my inventory Copper, 2 types pex ,cpvc ,pvc ,sharkbite ,galvanized, black iron, and latest greatest flexible gas line fittings.
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You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber;Crap rolls down hill,Hot is on the left and Don't bite your fingernails
1964 D-17 SIV 3 Pt.WF,1964 D-15 Ser II 3pt.WF ,1960 D-17 SI NF,1956 WD 45 WF.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 15 Dec 2023 at 9:20pm |
Pat... does anyone still install CPVC... or are you talking about working on OLD systems..
My CPVC was 25 years old and the Chlorine in the water (I THINK) attacked the pipe and it was Brittle.. Had a couple pin holes and when trying to work on the old system, the pipe would shatter if you did any twisting on it.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 16 Dec 2023 at 11:33am |
I use PEX with crimp rings for all the water service lines I do... both domestic water, and for radiant heat.
For supply water, one needs to make certain that they're using fittings and tools appropriate for the PEX type (i.e. PEX-A or PEX-B), and the proper tubing for the circumstance. Oxygen-Barrier and Pex-Al-Pex exclusively for radiant heating, as using non-barrier PEX in a closed system assures that oxygen will permeate INTO the fluid, causing highly accellerated corrosion in metal componentry like your heat exchanger.
I do NOT use pinch-clamps. I've found that crimp rings are extremely hard for me to screw up (something that I'm particularly well-skilled at) and the ring crimping tool is really inexpensive in the scheme of things.
I do not use SharkBite or any other tool-less fittings for water or fuel gas. I DO use push-on connectors for pneumatic actuators, typically industry-standard 6mm, as they're a standard setup for my machine tools' automation. They're on my tire machine's rim clamp, seat blower, and motion cylinders... I also use them on the pneumatic actuator for my henhouse door, and what other little gadgets I have built.
There's all sorts of pros and cons to plumbing. I've said it in the past, and I'll say it again: I say The BOOK is wrong: The ROOT of ALL EVIL... is actually PLUMBING. ;-) In Dante's Divine Comedy, Lucifer sits upon his 'throne', frozen in the deepest depths of hell... his throne is a toilet, and being frozen, it will not flush... which is ALMOST the most terrible torment one could experience...
Exceeded by only one factor: Plumbers, by virtue of their absolutely endless patience required by their craft, are all automatically elevated to sainthood, thus, escape the grip of eternal damnation and therefore, are not available for service in Hell... and of course, Politicians are seriously incapable of tradeswork.
As for sizing of tubing, the choice of what one selects is not a heart-breaking thing. MOST of my PEXwork is done with 3/4" feeders to manifolds with 1/2" valve ports, and each port goes to a specific point that really doesn't demand more than the port, or the feeder can accomodate.
In the OP's setup, I'm seeing a very 'home grown' system, with no real need for science beyond acknowledgement of the expected PRESSURE. If his plate exchanger exceeds the vapor pressure which his liquid generates, he'll have a boil-over... the plate exchanger might overheat and unsweat itself, and the PEX may melt off, but beyond that, it's not a complicated ordeal. The biggest issue, and what I believe he's faced with, is just a matter of interface... coupling the PEX to an old tractor radiator isn't something that the hardware store shelf holds.. so it means cobbling together the right parts to get from one size to another.
Lathes are really handy for this sort of thing...
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Pat the Plumber CIL
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Posted: 16 Dec 2023 at 6:22pm |
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Not much CPVC being installed these days but still see it . It does get brittle over time . When it freezes throw it all away and start over as it shatters completely. Pex has pretty much eliminated it in new construction. Some homeowners and DIYers still use it as no special tools, skills needed.
I stock CPVC for repairs only .
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You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber;Crap rolls down hill,Hot is on the left and Don't bite your fingernails
1964 D-17 SIV 3 Pt.WF,1964 D-15 Ser II 3pt.WF ,1960 D-17 SI NF,1956 WD 45 WF.
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plummerscarin
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Posted: 16 Dec 2023 at 8:30pm |
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I still see CPVC in large apartment building construction. More so from out of town outfits.
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