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Petronix Ignition

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GregLawlerMinn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GregLawlerMinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Petronix Ignition
    Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 7:40am
Neighbor's D14 W 12V Petronix ignition suddenly ceased to fire when starting. It started (and ran fine) if pulled. It had been a reliable starter for several years. I noticed a voltage drop to the coil (between the ignition switch and the coil) when the starter was engaged. We re-installed the points and the tractor fires up immediately when starting. I know the Petronix is somewhat sensitive to voltage drops; however, I am not sure what is causing the voltage drop. He did install a new battery, cables, spark plugs/wire, and distributor cap and the problem still persisted. I believe it could be the starter or the ignition switch (it is a key start). Neighbor liked the Petronix when it was working and would like to re-install it. Any ideas as to what is causing the voltage drop and the remedy for it?
What this country needs is more unemployed politicians-and lawyers.
Currently have: 1 D14 and a D15S2.
With new owners: 2Bs,9CAs,1WD,2 D12s,5D14s,3D15S2s, 2D17SIVs,D17D,1D19D;1 Unstyled WC
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CAL(KS) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAL(KS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 8:01am
i would guess starter is pulling too much.  maybe its time to have it checked?  what size are the cables?
Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Steve in NJ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 8:10am
The Pertronix Ignitors need a certain about of voltage at the module in order to fire. The 6V module needs at least 4V to fire off. The 12V version needs approx. 8V's to fire the module off. If the voltage reaching the coil is less in either version, the E.I. will not fire. Inspect the Ignition circuit from key switch to coil and see if there's a voltage drop. Could be a few strands of wire internally fail. Could be a bad Ignition switch. Take your time check it out. Could easily be a bad ground if cables were replaced...

In quite a few circumstances, I've seen when the Starter motors start to wear, they draw more current than normal. If there is an E.I. upstream, in some cases (not all) the Starter while engaged may take more current for that split second from the Battery dropping voltage on the Ignition side of the key to drop the voltage to the E.I. and the module will not fire till the engine actually starts to roll over faster. Its right at about the time you let go of the key switch or Starter rod.

Another thing I would like to point out when running one of Pertronix E.I.'s. A couple summers back we were notified that the solid core wires that are on a lot of Tractors were playing havoc and knocking out the modules due to a stray spike off the wires. Pertronix suggested changing over to carbon core or "resistor" wires to eliminate the stray spark issue. There is no performance lost with this move, but this seemed to do the trick. Anytime any of our customer's are looking into a Pertronix kit, I always ask them to double check to see what type of core wire their running on their Tractor, and have them switch over if they have to to avoid the problem. Whether they get the plug wires from us or local doesn't matter to me. You wanna' play it safe when you're spending good money on an E.I. Overall, the units are really nice. We sell a lot of em' with only a few that had troubles in the past, and usually Pertronix took care of the problem with either repairing  or replacing the unit for the customer directly. 

If you have any questions on the unit, I suggest giving Pertronix a call on their Tech line. They will have you try a few things, and if those particular things don't work, they'll have you send the unit back so they can test it. Tech line-909-599-5955  HTH

Steve@B&B
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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CTuckerNWIL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 8:23am
I have the same problem with my WC, not pextronic, but distributor ignition. Everything is new and rebuilt(except the starter was just cleaned up internally) and it fires right up if I put voltage to the coil from an outside source. Just haven't gotten around to pulling the starter and having it tested.


Edited by CTuckerNWIL - 18 Jan 2019 at 8:25am
http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 8:32am
Hay Steveof B&B
How much current does a PI draw ? The 'low voltage while starting' can be easily eliminated by a $10-20 'boost convertor' module.
I use them to run 12V LEDs off 6 volt batteries...
Jay
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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JayIN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JayIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 8:42am
Run 12v led off of 6v ?? You can do that?
sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?"
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Steve in NJ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 8:49am
Jay,
A boost converter module can blow the Ignitor. Another thing I didn't mention when it comes to Pertronix E.I.'s. Never leave the key on when charging the Battery. To many times I've heard that's happened when folks try to start their Tractors after they been sitting for months only to find a low or dead Battery. They hop off the Tractor, (leaving the key on) grab the Battery charger, set the boost mode and let r' rip blowing the Ignitor right out of the Distributor. Whoops!  Soo.. Pertronix EI's won't tolerate high voltage either...
Steve@B&B
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GregLawlerMinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 9:19am
In that the tractor starts right up and runs fine when pulled (with the petronix installed) am I correct in assuming that the module is not defective? How does one test the ignition switch to determine if it is defective?
What this country needs is more unemployed politicians-and lawyers.
Currently have: 1 D14 and a D15S2.
With new owners: 2Bs,9CAs,1WD,2 D12s,5D14s,3D15S2s, 2D17SIVs,D17D,1D19D;1 Unstyled WC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 9:41am
re: JayIn...
yes easy to run 12v LEDS  from 6V battery

re: Steve
why ? The convertor only puts out 12 VDC, regardless of battery being 6-8-10-12-14 volts.

Jay
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 9:50am
If you're pulling the Tractor and it fires and runs, then its quite obvious the module is okay. An easy way to check an Ignition switch is with a test light. Turn the key to ON and check the terminals that are energized. Move the key around while the test light is on. If no flicker in the test light, go to the next position and do the same. If no indication of the test light flickering or going out during your tests, I would say the switch is okay. Check the terminals to make sure they are tight in the back of the switch. If they're good. time to move downstream. If there's a problem, you'll find it. Make sure your coil has 2.7-3.3 ohms of resistance at the posts. A bad coil can be a problem...
Steve@B&B
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill_MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by Steve in NJ Steve in NJ wrote:

In quite a few circumstances, I've seen when the Starter motors start to wear, they draw more current than normal. If there is an E.I. upstream, in some cases (not all) the Starter while engaged may take more current for that split second from the Battery dropping voltage on the Ignition side of the key to drop the voltage to the E.I. and the module will not fire till the engine actually starts to roll over faster. Its right at about the time you let go of the key switch or Starter rod.
Steve I've noticed this many times with my WD, it cranks then fires off right when I let go of the rod. Starter sounds good cranking but is this still a sign of it failing?
1951 WD #78283, 1918 Case 28x50 Thresher #76738, Case Centennial B 2x16 Plow
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 4:44pm
Bill,
As long as the ole' girl fires up everytime, don't worry bout' it!  LOL!!  If the Tractor sits for a little while and Battery reserve drops a tick, that may cause it also. Once the Tractor has been working and the Gennie topped off the Battery, it may not do it at all until the Battery's reserve drops again. When you get a real grunt at the first engagement of the Starter to a cold engine, and then it starts to roll the engine over slow, that's when you should look into getting the Starter motor/armature tested. While the Starter is out getting its "physical", check all other components tied to the Battery to make sure everything checks out okay. Cables, Battery itself, connections, etc.   HTH
Steve@B&B
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigGuy1000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 5:20pm
Re: jaybmiller:  On our  1951 WD(6v pos. gnd.) the PI draws almost 4 amps because the original Delco coil is about 1.5 ohms, when starting the battery voltage drops(for a few milliseconds) at top of compression(M&W pistons) to as low as 3.1 volts(PI will not fire) or 3.8 volts(PI will fire) depending on temperature and battery condition. We have been running this setup for more than 10 years, but only in the past year have been running a 6v SOLAR battery maintainer which helps lots. On a 6v pos gnd PI the PI is in series with the coil so you cannot separate the coil current from the PI current, so a buckboost converter must deliver 4 amps at 6v from about 3 volts 8 amps!!!(not exact, just approx.).  The kind of converters you are talking about do not come anywhere close to being able to do that!  I have found one that will do that, but cost about $300--too much for me!  On a 12v neg gnd PI you may be able to rewire to supply PI separately with its much smaller current, but my experience is that these cheap Chinese buckboosts are not very reliable, do not supply enough current, and will probably fail quickly in the high current high voltage environment of a tractor ignition! 
Re: SteveBB Pertronix says coil R should be about 3 ohms not 1.5, but we have been running Ok >10 years on PI, 40 years without PI.  Note that to get the proper 2 amps to the coil at 3 volt crank time, coil must be 1.5 ohms!
All: Note that, just as in an AC transformer, in order to double the output voltage at a fixed current, it will draw double the current! 
A 6v battery maintainer(not a charger) will help a lot if you are still running 6 volt pos gnd.!!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 6:26pm
I've designed/built/used a lot of buck-boost power supplies in the past 3 decades. Nowadays it's a lot easier with computer design software and parts easily available. Basic specs here are a 24 Watt unit, 3V to 6V input, 6 volt out, good for 4 amps.With Shamless's 'donation' tomorrow, I'll have some computer time(providing lines don't fall) , I'll see what's out there.
Basic parts might cost $20...some possible 'off the shelf' repurposed units include Li-Ion battery charger/boost modules, solar/battery powered emerg lighting. In the good old days, alarm panels were 6 volt and they sold 'upverters' for them. Those would do the job.
Jay
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2019 at 7:45am
found these..
 I'll order a couple next week, report back in a month takes 3 weeks...
One 'trick'  I've done on Jeep with plow, 1 battery for the lift+ starter, one for the ignition yet charged from 1 alternator. That way coil always gets full power .
Jay
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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jaybmiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 11:58am
OK, more reading...
is what I've ordered. Being built around the LTC1871, it should have more than enough 'guts' to do the job. Heck I can't buy 1/2 the parts for the cost of the assembled module ! Now I'll have to find  and rig up a 6V coil, points and battery. Good news is I have 3 weeks before the 'slow boat from China' arrives. Will report back after testing

3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 6:22pm
Early D14 was 6v. With a 12v Pertronix, it's been converted. We all know 6v starters tolerate 12v quite well, however, 12v ignition systems don't like low voltage. A 12v battery with a bad cell will still crank a 6v starter just fine, but the battery voltage will drop below that magic 9.7v to be able to generate a strong enough discharge to jump the plug gaps under compression. It's also possible the ignition switch isn't providing power to the coil in the crank position. A test light on the coil positive (assume NEG ground) while cranking the engine will tell that story.
Check the switch, if it's ok take the battery out to be tested. I'll bet you find it has a bad cell.
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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