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Oil filter failure

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Denis in MI View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis in MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

Remove the base and make absitively sure the hole into the block is open and can easily let air blow thru it and the base is free flowing as well to the block.


Would a restriction at the filter base cause the excessive pressure at the oil line outlet on the side of the block?

Thanks for all the help so far,
Denis
1938 B, 1945 B, 1941 IB, 1949 C, 2 1938 WCs, 3 1950 WDs, 1951 WD, 2 1955 WD45, 1957 D-14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 9:46pm
If the base is open to the crankcase as it should be, the extra oil will  bypass through the filter and the pressure would never get that high. You might still have a problem with the relief valve. It should also leak back into the sump if the pressure is too high.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis in MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 9:56pm
I removed the pressure relief valve and started the engine, with the ball and spring removed I read right in the middle of the factory gauge at the oil filter base and my 100 PSI gauge barely moves measuring at the port on the side of the block.

I'm kind of confused and scratching my head on this one boys. The spring for the pressure relief valve seems very lite as far as pressure to compress and the "thrust plate" that is supposed to go between the cover and the plunger is missing so the springs are far less shimmed than they should be.

Any Ideas?

Thanks,
Denis
1938 B, 1945 B, 1941 IB, 1949 C, 2 1938 WCs, 3 1950 WDs, 1951 WD, 2 1955 WD45, 1957 D-14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 10:06pm
So you have no spring or ball in the relief and no filter on the base and you get 15 PSI ?
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis in MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 10:11pm
I have the filter on, but no relief valve in it and still have about 15 psi. 
Hope that clears it up.

Thanks again,
Denis
1938 B, 1945 B, 1941 IB, 1949 C, 2 1938 WCs, 3 1950 WDs, 1951 WD, 2 1955 WD45, 1957 D-14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chalmersbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 10:18pm
You still have the relief valve in the pump. Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 10:31pm
I'm not there looking at it, but, you seem to have something seriously wrong here. A D15 engine has a different oil pump/filtering system than a D14 does. A D14 oil pump is camshaft driven at the rear and 80% to 90% ? of all the oil is pumped directly into the hollow camshaft up against the ball and spring in the front camshaft nose and is pressurized. The hollow camshaft has three cam bearings and they take oil from the hollow cam to the main and rod bearings. The hollow camshaft is the main oil galley. You are getting little to zero oil to your bearings as you describe it!!!!! The remaining 10% to 20% of the oil comes out thru the single external small diameter tube and up thru the filter base small vertical tube for the slow cotton type filtering process and then clean oil returns thru a hole in the block to sump. A D15 engine is similar but very different. All 100% the oil of a D15 comes out of the pump thru the external steel tube (3/8" diameter) and thru the filter base (different base than a D14) thru the larger full-flow paper filter (Fram PH8A) and then OUT of the base thru another external 3/8" diameter steel tube and into a brass 90 degree elbow into the block at the center canshaft brg location. 100% of the oil goes thru the filter and enters the hollow camshaft at the center cam brg for distribution of all filtered oil to the center-front-rear cam brgs and then the mains and rods. The ball and spring still regulate oil pressure inside the hollow camshaft. It's like somebody has installed a D15 pump on a D14 engine...?????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnCO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 10:35pm
I use Wix filters pretty much all the time.  A few years ago I got one of the paper element filters for the G and had almost no oil pressure.  Took it back when the auto supply was having a Wix  promotion with factory reps.  Gave them a hard time and they said it was the tractor, not their filter but he gave me a couple of the rag packed filters and the oil pressure was back to normal.  Wouldn't admit it but at the time but I think Wix dropped the paper filter. 
You might take that blown one back to the parts place, they will probably replace it for free, even if it wasn't the filter's fault.
"If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis in MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 10:49pm
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

I'm not there looking at it, but, you seem to have something seriously wrong here. A D15 engine has a different oil pump/filtering system than a D14 does. A D14 oil pump is camshaft driven at the rear and 80% to 90% ? of all the oil is pumped directly into the hollow camshaft up against the ball and spring in the front camshaft nose and is pressurized. The hollow camshaft has three cam bearings and they take oil from the hollow cam to the main and rod bearings. The hollow camshaft is the main oil galley. You are getting little to zero oil to your bearings as you describe it!!!!! The remaining 10% to 20% of the oil comes out thru the single external small diameter tube and up thru the filter base small vertical tube for the slow cotton type filtering process and then clean oil returns thru a hole in the block to sump. A D15 engine is similar but very different. All 100% the oil of a D15 comes out of the pump thru the external steel tube (3/8" diameter) and thru the filter base (different base than a D14) thru the larger full-flow paper filter (Fram PH8A) and then OUT of the base thru another external 3/8" diameter steel tube and into a brass 90 degree elbow into the block at the center canshaft brg location. 100% of the oil goes thru the filter and enters the hollow camshaft at the center cam brg for distribution of all filtered oil to the center-front-rear cam brgs and then the mains and rods. The ball and spring still regulate oil pressure inside the hollow camshaft. It's like somebody has installed a D15 pump on a D14 engine...?????

I was thinking this too, but I installed my gauge to check pressure at the port on the block that appears to be where the center cam bearing is located. I removed the T fitting that feeds oil to the valve train and the governor and installed the gauge and I still measure 100 PSI + at this point with the relief valve installed. 

So if I understand correctly I must have a D-14 pump if I have oil pressure at the cam bearing? 

Oil does pump through the camshaft and I can look down it and see all the way to the oil pump so I don't have any blockages there.

So in theory I shouldn't have oil pressure at the cam bearing with the relief valve removed (which I may not, I couldn't see the gauge move but thought it might have wiggled a little), but I should have it at the oil filter base correct?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis in MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 10:59pm
Here's a thought that just crossed my mind. Do the D-14 and D-15 use different relief valve spring? If they do is it possible that the relief valve spring was replaced with one from a D-15?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 11:01pm
A properly working D14 filtering system will have a small volume of oil coming up into the cotton filter and running freely back into the side of the block. The only pressure there is comes from the resistance of the cotton filtering media. A new filter shows less oil pressure than an old dirty filter. The gauge only reflects what is going on inside the filter, not necessarily the rest of the engine. You have to have a higher than normal volume of oil coming to the filter to cause this much pressure at the filter area. Put that ball and spring back where it belongs to at least keep pressure to all mains and rods. Funny the pressure regulator is missing a part.....it's like there's been something wrong for a long time????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis in MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 11:08pm
Yes I am going to put everything back, I only removed the ball and spring to see what would happen and only ran the engine for 10-15 seconds at the most with it removed. I was under the impression that the oil system on this tractor worked very similar to a B/C and those have two lines coming off of the pump outlet that comes out through the bell housing. I thought maybe this should, but it only has the one line that runs to the bottom of the filter base.

Thanks again,
Denis
1938 B, 1945 B, 1941 IB, 1949 C, 2 1938 WCs, 3 1950 WDs, 1951 WD, 2 1955 WD45, 1957 D-14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 11:26pm

 D14 and D15 camshaft pressure regulator and camshaft thrust spring parts are all the same.....two springs on each and a ball, thrust plate etc....all that stuff is identical. The oil pumps are different !!! ...the D15 has a small ball and spring inside the rotor called a pressure regualtor (I assume for cold oil starts and allows oil to go directly to the hollow camshaft) and the D14 does not have this. Oil pump is a 70237078 for D15 and 70228128 for D14 oil pump.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis in MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 11:30pm
So is there any way to tell which pump is in it without splitting the tractor?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevin in WA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 11:45pm
The pipe coming up out of the clutch housing on a D14 is only 1/8 pipe, and the D15 pump is bigger maybe 1/4'' pipe. I suppose somebody could have adapted the D14 plumbing to the D15 pump and all the oil is trying the go through the filter like Dr Allis said, and the cold safety relief is letting enough through into the cam and has kept the engine from seizing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis in MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 11:50pm
I am pretty sure that the pipe coming out is 1/8" but I will look in the morning to be sure. The only thing that doesn't make sense is why would I have the 100 PSI+ at the center cam bearing?

Thanks for all the help,
Denis


Edited by Denis in MI - 18 Jan 2012 at 11:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonnyWalton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 12:49am
He How do you get the oil filter out to 1973 HD6EP it seems that they don't give you enough room to pull the housing out? Any Ideas where oil drain plug is. Do you need to take the rock Shields  off to get to it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mactractor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 1:35am
After you have removed the engine side panel (on top of frame rail) and the center bolt that draws the housing up to gasket, tilt the housing slightly, then it comes right out. Rock shields have small plates bolted in to the center. Remove the small plate. Drain plug is right there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis in MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 9:04am
Well, the pump seems correct. So if we assume it is, where is the next place to start looking for my issue? Is it possible that with the cam thrust plate missing the cam is walking forward and blocking the oil passages on the front or rear bearings?

Thanks for all the help,
Denis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatordoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 9:21am

Could it have spun the cam bearing?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis in MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 10:12am
Originally posted by Gatordoc Gatordoc wrote:

Could it have spun the cam bearing?

I sure hope not.

So if the pressure at the filter and the engine oil pressure are two different things, does the relief valve control pressure at the filter too?

I also noticed that it seems to push the guts out of the filter, like the oil can't go through the filter fast enough. 

Or is it possible that the cam is walking forward and not leaving sufficient clearance to let the excess oil drain once it passes the relief valve?

Thanks again,
Denis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 10:22am
Cam shifting to cut off the oil from the cam bearings is a good possibility. With helical gears its going to shift if not restrained.

Gerald J.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rawleigh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 11:52am
Especially without the thrust plate!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by Denis in MI Denis in MI wrote:

 

So if the pressure at the filter and the engine oil pressure are two different things, does the relief valve control pressure at the filter too?

I also noticed that it seems to push the guts out of the filter, like the oil can't go through the filter fast enough. 

Or is it possible that the cam is walking forward and not leaving sufficient clearance to let the excess oil drain once it passes the relief valve?

Thanks again,
Denis

Oil pressure is one thing, there are not 2 different pressures. The whole system is connected together. If you have a blockage at a cam bearing, which sounds highly likely, the relief may not be letting enough volume out and the rest can't get past the filter fast enough. The cam is a lot easier to check out and work on than the crank and rod bearings and you will be doing all of them eventually if there is a blockage to the cam from the supply.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis in MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 12:25pm
I guess the place to start is to find a thrust plate and go from there. If that doesn't cure it I guess I'll have to tear it down and see whats going on.

Thanks for the help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis in MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 1:16pm
Does anybody have a "Thrust Plate" that they want to part with. I'm sure I can get one from AGCO but I would rather give my hard earned money to another site member or a supporter of this site.

Thanks,
Denis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 1:20pm
Don't the 'rod' bearings get their oil from oil being sprayed out tiny holes in the cam ?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 5:22pm
That's only on B-C-CA-RC engines.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David (in Mi.) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 6:20pm
You wouldn't have any rods or mains if you don't get this fixed.  It really does sound more and more like the cam bushing have turned and blocking all oil from rest of engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chalmersbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 10:37pm
The part that you need is the "plunger" thrust, and it should be the same in any CE  series engine. You also need a spring to go with it. 1 spring fits inside of the other.
That could solve all of your problems. If the cam moves front, and it will, it could block the oil holes. I didn't think that pump would put out that much presure. I also didn't realize that the D14 pump didn't have the spring and ball in the drive shaft. I just worked on a D15 and I knew it used them. So that means the front ball and spring regulates the pressure for the whole engine. Bob
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