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calico190xt68 
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 Topic: Need some Electrial Advice - Not Orange
Posted: 10 Jan 2025 at 10:45am |
I am completely stumped on my Cummins 855 engine not starting in the cold. Two weeks ago when the weather was in the middle 30s to low 40s, truck started just fine on 2 batteries. Temps dipped into single digits and now the starter won't turn the motor over. Unfortunately, it was outside when this started so I can't heat it up very easily.
I removed the starter and discovered it is working just fine. Had it checked out by the fellow that sold me the starter. I checked the volts at the starter and it had 14+ volts with the battery boost on. While I had the starter off, I was able to use a pry bar and turn the flywheel (while the engine was hot) but barely, so I don't think there is any ice build up around the flywheel, otherwise, it wouldn't have moved. Since I see those kinds of volts at the starter, I think that means the grounding is good.
My engine was about 57 degrees with the old Block Heater, so I thought the engine needed to be hotter so I replaced the Block Heater and now it gets up to 100 degrees on one side and 65 degrees on the other. I also added 2 brand new batteries making it a 4 battery setup. The original two batteries, I removed and got them warm inside and charged them where they showed 12.8 volts without a major drop in voltage after disconnecting from charger. I put the 200AMP engine boost setting on the charger while trying to start and it turned the motor flywheel but barely and then stopped.
My first thought was that it isn't pulling enough amps but the new batteries should have solved that. However, the only thing different between two weeks ago and this week is the temps. I put a tarp over the hood and a propane heater under the engine for hours to see if maybe the oil was too cold. I used infrared temp gun on the oil dipstick and it said it was 65 degrees.
I don't think my Multimeter is big enough to handle the Amps going from the batteries to the starter if I wanted to test the amps. That would rule out the batteries, cables and grounding not being good, I think.
The bad news is that the temps are going to stay below freezing for weeks it seems. So, this truck isn't moving anytime soon unless I figure this out. Truck has started with very little cranking in the past.
Block heater on, propane heater on, new batteries, good starter and still won't start? Cables look to be good and are all heavy duty. I am searching for some ideas on what this could be? I know it is a big engine but that block heater should do the trick, even with marginal batteries.
My son is thinking about putting it into gear and pulling it to see if that will free up the flywheel some. We did start it that way once after filling the air bags with an external air compressor but that was in the summer.
I know there are a lot of smart guys on here about electrical issues so thanks in advanced for any ideas.
Edited by calico190xt68 - 10 Jan 2025 at 10:47am
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Acdiesel
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Posted: 10 Jan 2025 at 11:16am |
clean all battery connections- I have seen many that look good but are not. (tractors, cars etc)
Did you check the voltage at the starter solenoid when you hit the Key. It may have low voltage causing the solenoid not to close the contacts completely. (use a jumper wire right off the battery cable to the crank terminal on the soleniod, Have an helper hold the clutch pedal down)
You can use a clamp on amp meter to check your amp draw around the battery cable by the starter. Your Amp draw will be high for about 2 to 5 seconds after you hit the key (350-550 +/- amps) and then drop off as the starter begings cranking. The problem I see is because your starter is not spining its going to most likely show a high amp draw.
Is there any chance you may have coolant in one of your engine cylinders causing a hydro-lock of your engine?
If you don't think your engine is hydro-locking then i would air up your system and try pull starting.
Edited by Acdiesel - 10 Jan 2025 at 11:21am
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 10 Jan 2025 at 11:45am |
As we put back the batteries, I did scrape off the cables to make sure they had good contact. I didn't scrape off all of them though. I may disconnect a few of the ground cables and scrape them.
I did not check the voltage at the S terminal. I can do that. It seems it is engaging and fully since the flywheel spins a bit. I will say that after adding 2 new batteries it spun the flywheel a little more.
Truck runs really good and doesn't smoke so I don't see coolant getting in the engine cylinders as sympton. I replaced all of the engine coolant when I fixed the Block Heater and it was not low.
It seems everything is fine until it gets under load of trying to spin flywheel. It does move the flywheel slightly if it has good charge.
We will pull it tomorrow most likely, although getting another 2 inches of snow today on top of the 6 inches, so going to be slippery and bad traction.
Thanks for your ideas though.
Edited by calico190xt68 - 10 Jan 2025 at 11:45am
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DanWi
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Posted: 10 Jan 2025 at 12:18pm |
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A bad connection some where or a bad cable. If you can trace your cables all the way feel for a bulge or soft spot that has corroded under the insulation. Air it up to release the brakes and pull start it, put in something like 5th or 6th gear. Usually doesn't take much to start em that way but you may have to pull it on the road if you have snow to get enough traction. Other thing would be Need to load test at your starter or check cables for a hot spot
Edited by DanWi - 10 Jan 2025 at 12:34pm
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 10 Jan 2025 at 12:57pm |
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when most think of CORRODED cables, they are looking at the GEREN/WHITE Sulfate on the terminals and clamps. I have also seen a BLACK very thin Iron Oxide form on the battery terminals and the clamp that surrounds it.( just a couple thousands thick... A wire brush or sand paper is needed to clean that up... Make sure all the terminals and ground are SHINNY... not just clean of powder sulfate..
Edited by steve(ill) - 10 Jan 2025 at 12:58pm
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 10 Jan 2025 at 1:18pm |
I would do a voltage drop test of the cables.
Place one test probe on the Positive terminal of the battery (right on the battery post itself, NOT on the cable terminal) and place the other test probe on the starter terminal (again, not on the cable terminal). Have someone attempt to crank the engine; ideally there will be zero Volts dropped, but a tenth or two of a volt is realistic.
Do the same test on the Negative battery terminal and have the other test probe on the actual starter case. Again, the Voltage drop should be very low.
This will verify the actual conductivity of the cables and all of the various connections therein, regardless of how shiny (or grungy) they may appear.
If those look acceptable, then do a Voltage drop test from the positive battery terminal to ground while someone attempts to crank.
If the Voltage drops WAY down and the engine barely cranks, then you have either a massive load on the starter, a bad starter, or bad batteries.
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Tbone95
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Posted: 10 Jan 2025 at 1:18pm |
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You said you added 2 new batteries and now have 4. If one or both of those older batteries are weak the new batteries may not be helping. With everything as warmed up as you have it, I’d make sure and top off the charge of the new ones and try them alone.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 10 Jan 2025 at 1:24pm |
All 4 batteries should be same make/model/ratings. If ANY battery is 'less' than the others , it'll 'drag' the others down. This I learned from trucker who rented space from me. He had ONE bad battery, replaced ALL of them, zero problems and I got 3 big HEAVY 'semisized' batteries out of the deal.
Also ALL battery cables need to be PERFECT, NO clamp on ends, NO corrosion, NO rusty ground connections.
semi here was freightliner, NO glow plugs but ALWAYS started in dead of winter. Guy would call, I'd start it up, 1/2hr later he's 'on the road'.....
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DanWi
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Posted: 10 Jan 2025 at 1:47pm |
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Steve is right if they are top post batteries, use a sharp tool or something that will cut thru the black layer. Have had that a couple times pull out the pocketknife and clean post and terminal and a vehicle that appears dead fires right up. 6 volts have a tendency to do that. In a pinch quick fix if I didn't have wrenches but have a screwdriver, I ground it in between the terminal and clamp to make a connection. Another thing that works on black terminals is just use a pliers like you're trying to strip a bolt to clean the post. And also agree Jay and Tbone. 2 good batteries should do it A bad one could be draining power away. Disconnect your old ones and try.
Edited by DanWi - 10 Jan 2025 at 2:35pm
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 10 Jan 2025 at 8:31pm |
Man, that to me sounds like a grounding issue. Did you clean your ground cables at the chassis side? Cold temps can play havoc with grounds.... Steve@B&B
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 11 Jan 2025 at 8:01am |
I kind of think it is a grounding issue myself. The cold changing the grounds makes the most sense. This truck started without issue 2 weeks ago. The ground cable goes to the frame, and then from the frame to the starter. Another ground cable goes from the frame to the engine. I am going to take them loose and polish and then see what happens.
All of the batteries are matched to be the same, heavy duty bought from O'Reillys 31-5T, 900 CCA. 2 are brand new, one is 6 months old and the other is about 9 months old. Top post with threads and all are very clean. Nothing is really dirty and I have one new 2/0 molded battery cable. All appear to hold charge after setting at around 12.7 volts so I don't think it is a battery issue. I also put the 200 Amp Boost on the set of batteries when trying to start and measured 14 .4 volts at the starter positive and negative posts.
I have a fresh 2 inches of snow and very cold so I am having a hard time getting psyched up to deal with it this morning.
I am going to clean ground cables, measure the amps and do the voltage test drop as mentioned above later today and see what I have.
Would it make sense to run a ground cable directly to the starter post from one of the batteries just to see if it matters? This would eliminate the frame ground as a culprit.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 11 Jan 2025 at 8:07am |
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any Extra ground... even ajumper cable, can not hurt... and would help to prove a point if the ground is the problem.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 11 Jan 2025 at 8:26am |
 calico190xt68 wrote:
...I am going to clean ground cables, measure the amps and do the voltage test drop as mentioned above later today and see what I have. |
Do the voltage drop first if you truly want to learn the root cause.
calico190xt68 wrote:
Would it make sense to run a ground cable directly to the starter post from one of the batteries just to see if it matters? This would eliminate the frame ground as a culprit.
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I had to do exactly this on my Son-in-law's 1950 HD5G because the voltage drop test proved there was poor conductivity through the chassis ground connection.
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Ed (Ont)
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Posted: 11 Jan 2025 at 8:58am |
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What year is this truck? Computer operated or older mechanical one? The newer ones(N14) started pretty good in the cold. Older ones not so much. I used block heater from December to March up here. Much easier on everything!!!
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AC7060IL
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Posted: 11 Jan 2025 at 3:42pm |
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Cleaning ground cables/connections to frame/engine/starter is a good maintenance service.
Try to also inspect/replace batteries “bus bars?” ESPECIALLY, if you’re running a “direct to starter” of either ground or positive leads. If a bus bar is corroded under rubber coatings, it can act similar to corroded/poor cable. Be careful ~ a compromised bus bar could create serious amperage draws on ONLY 1 or two batteries when cranking semi engine starters. Do a continuity test on bars & cables or swap them from another semi truck if that’s an option?
Edited by AC7060IL - 11 Jan 2025 at 3:45pm
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 11 Jan 2025 at 3:56pm |
This is a GMC General with a replaced engine, 1987 Cummins 855 Big Cam IV. I believe. This is near the end of their manufacture so I think that makes it a newer N14. This engine appears to be a new crate engine as it was not taken out of another truck after researching it's serial number. This is the first time I have tried to start it in the winter even though I have owned for 2 years now. Last year I didn't move it in the winter
I did set the meter to ohms and when I checked from the starter stud to one of the battery posts it showed .33 on resistance. When I checked from one battery to the next it was 0. I am guessing this is the problem?
Hopefully I did these tests correctly. My first voltage test on Negative when using my multimeter connected to the starter motor ground stud and one of the battery terminal negative posts went from 0 to 2.78-3.1 volts. The Positive test from starter motor positive to a battery positive did about the same thing. Went from 0 to 2.6-3.1 volts. The reason i say there is a range is because as I held the wire the range first started at 2.78 and then as it turned the motor, it went higher and stayed there until I released the wire. The test from positive starter to negative battery went from 12.56 volts to about 8.5 and then to 7 volts.
I put my battery charger on 40A boost and the Volts were up to 13.7 but then they went down to 10.3. Same voltage drop.
I thought it was normal to have a 3 volt drop when you try to start? That's what I see from my all of tests except for one.
Would it make sense to place the battery charger clamps directly on the starter motor positive and negative studs as a temporary test?
I don't have a helper so I screwed a wire on the S terminal on top of the starter solenoid and then touched it to a positive terminal to mimic the key turning.
I did run an old tractor battery wire that I had laying around to the ground stud on the battery starter to the battery ground. It did not help. I don't have a set of large 2/0 spare wires to bypass the existing ground and positive cables. I should have those tomorrow.
There is a test that is showing me a problem though I believe. When I place the multimeter probe on the negative starter post and the positive starter post and then try to start, the Voltage goes from 12.7 Volts to 1.8-2.1 volts. That is a 10 volt drop. That would seem to be too large of a drop? Not like the 3 volts that I see when testing from the starter to the battery terminal. Since the batteries aren't dropping that far, it makes me think there is still a bad cable or ground in this mix.
I still don't see having bad batteries. Bad cables, bad ground and a massive load still remain. Tomorrow hopefully I can get some bypass cables and hook them from the battery to the starter and eliminate existing cables as the problem.
Appreciate any feedback!
Edited by calico190xt68 - 11 Jan 2025 at 4:22pm
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deckape
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Posted: 11 Jan 2025 at 6:55pm |
It's the ground , always the ground . 
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 11 Jan 2025 at 7:35pm |
You are making progress now! 
calico190xt68 wrote:
I did set the meter to ohms and when I checked from the starter stud to one of the battery posts it showed .33 on resistance. When I checked from one battery to the next it was 0. I am guessing this is the problem? |
Yes, that indicates a problem as it really should be Zero. It is, however, difficult to get really accurate ohm readings on large cables with ordinary meters, which is why I constantly recommend the voltage drop test as it tests under dynamic conditions.
calico190xt68 wrote:
Hopefully I did these tests correctly. My first voltage test on Negative when using my multimeter connected to the starter motor ground stud and one of the battery terminal negative posts went from 0 to 2.78-3.1 volts. The Positive test from starter motor positive to a battery positive did about the same thing. Went from 0 to 2.6-3.1 volts. |
That is way too much voltage drop. The cables themselves or any and all of the individual contact places in the circuit are causing excessive resistance resulting in less energy available at the starter.
calico190xt68 wrote:
The reason i say there is a range is because as I held the wire the range first started at 2.78 and then as it turned the motor, it went higher and stayed there until I released the wire. The test from positive starter to negative battery went from 12.56 volts to about 8.5 and then to 7 volts. |
This test is inconclusive as it doesn't isolate the problem; you have half of the cables and all of the battery pack in the circuit. It doesn't look good though.
calico190xt68 wrote:
I put my battery charger on 40A boost and the Volts were up to 13.7 but then they went down to 10.3. Same voltage drop.
I thought it was normal to have a 3 volt drop when you try to start?... |
It is, except you are adding an external influence with the booster. Once again, inconclusive.
calico190xt68 wrote:
Would it make sense to place the battery charger clamps directly on the starter motor positive and negative studs as a temporary test? |
Yes.
That will give you the most benefit of the booster because it will bypass the high resistance you have proven is in your cable.
calico190xt68 wrote:
.... I don't have a set of large 2/0 spare wires to bypass the existing ground and positive cables. I should have those tomorrow. |
Good. You are on the right track.
calico190xt68 wrote:
There is a test that is showing me a problem though I believe. When I place the multimeter probe on the negative starter post and the positive starter post and then try to start, the Voltage goes from 12.7 Volts to 1.8-2.1 volts. That is a 10 volt drop. That would seem to be too large of a drop? ... |
Yup. The internal resistance of a starter motor is quite low at zero RPM. Put your ohmmeter on it and see. Without getting into electric motor theory, let's just say that some magic happens as the starter speeds up during cranking and the current draw goes down. Starters are typically rated for maximum current draw at locked rotor.
Since your cables have demonstrated an excessive voltage drop, indicating an inability to deliver current, the measured voltage directly across the the starter will plummet because the battery/cable combination cannot keep up with the demand.
calico190xt68 wrote:
I still don't see having bad batteries. Bad cables, bad ground and a massive load still remain. Tomorrow hopefully I can get some bypass cables and hook them from the battery to the starter and eliminate existing cables as the problem. |
I wouldn't condemn the batteries just yet. Get some good cabling installed, and then if you still have problems, do a voltage drop test on each individual battery while cranking.
Good luck!
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 12 Jan 2025 at 11:30am |
Well, I know a little more but still not fixed. While waiting on my cables, I decided to disconnect my ground cables and clean them. I discovered in doing this that the ground cable from the battery bank went to the frame and was not directly connected to the ground cable going to the starter. To describe this further, there are two holes in the frame about 4 inches apart and the battery bank ground goes to the top hole with a bolt securing it. Then the lower bolt hole secures the ground cable from the frame to the starter.
I decided to make both of these cables terminate at the same hole and bolt, thinking this would give a better connection. This effectively means these two cables are directly connected via the one bolt on each side of the frame.
My resistance dropped from .33 to .11 so it is better but still not acceptable. This change seemed to provide a little more punch on starting but still not enough to turn the engine over. Neither of my ground cables are long enough to go around the frame and attach one on top of the other which would be an even better connection. The bolt connecting the two ground cables now is a bit rusty so I am going to use a newer bolt although I do not have a copper bolt. Going to scrape off the paint on both sides of the frame to make better contact too.
The resistance of the positive cable continues to read 0 so I think that set of cables would be fine. As many have said in this thread, it is the Ground Cable, stupid. :-) I have two potential culprits right now, Since I scraped off and polished the two ends attached to the frame, it would point at one of those two cables as bad or I need to scrape off the other ends.
One thing that surprised me though is that I did attach the battery charger cables directly to the starter motor and it did not start. Now, my charger only has a 200 Amp starter boost and I am guessing that is not supplying enough amps? My 4 batteries each are rated at 900 Cold Cranking Amps and so the Battery Charger isn't supplying enough compared to what the batteries would supply?
It is a warmer day today, getting up to 35 and my parts arrive around 3PM, so will tinker with this some more later this afternoon. Once I get my cable splicing kit, I am going to make a longer cable that will go from the starter directly to the negative battery bank. This should eliminate the whole frame cable contact issue. I will know when it is good when the resistance reads 0 or 0.01.
In my research on this, I also discovered that a bad ground cable can cause battery drain. This truck has suffered from battery drain in the past but we had no idea what was causing it and thought we left something on. Fixing the ground cable, may fix that issue too. I am also installing a trickle charger on this truck as I don't want to ruin 4 batteries setting over the winter.
I have learned a lot in this exercise but not enough to fix it yet. Les Kerf, thanks for your detailed trouble shooting instructions!
Edited by calico190xt68 - 12 Jan 2025 at 11:32am
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DanWi
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Posted: 12 Jan 2025 at 12:05pm |
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Don't forget to still have a ground to frame when you run a dedicated ground to the starter. Otherwise you could have some issues with other stuff not working.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 12 Jan 2025 at 4:23pm |
DanWi wrote:
Don't forget to still have a ground to frame when you run a dedicated ground to the starter. Otherwise you could have some issues with other stuff not working. |
Good point It doesn't hurt to leave the old cables in place and connect the new cables in parallel. It may not be convenient though, depending on your exact layout.
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 12 Jan 2025 at 4:35pm |
Well, I still have no luck. I de-installed all negative ground cables and checked each cable for resistance and saw nothing over .3 ohms. I polished and cleaned each end. I checked resistance from the starter negative post to the last negative battery terminal and it did not show more than .3 ohms. I installed a cable from the negative ground post on the starter directly to a negative battery terminal (as well as leaving the ground cable attached to the frame) and still got little difference in starting. I did all of my starting tests with the charger attached and had 13 volts to the starter.
I haven't disconnected the positive cables and checked them for resistance so I am going to do that. I may buy some new overmolded battery to battery connectors as they are better than what I have and replace all ground cables.
I am running out of ideas to pursue.
There is too much snow on the ground to try and pull start it at this point. Looks like it is going to be at at least a week before the snow melts. Hopefully try to pull start it when the snow melts.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 12 Jan 2025 at 4:36pm |
hmm,, 200 amp ( maybe ) charger or 3600 amp batteries. Even old skool math can se a HUGE benefit to using the batteries. V= I x R ( Voltage = current time resistance ) so...say you need 100 amps to sin the starter, ground cable is .11 ohms 100 X .11 = 11 volts, so really only 2-3 volts maybe to spin the starter.......
Now one 'problem' with reading ohms with any meter. With a DMM, DVM, short the leads together. what's the reading ? It should be ZERO, but often it'll be some 'low' number(say .05) Now read the cable, meter says .11 ohms so you think .11. oopsy.. you have to subtract the .05 FROM the .11 reading. That 9.06 in this case ) IS the correct cable resistance. which in this case means 100 x .05 = 5 volts dropped or lost .
Yes you need new cables as ANY resistance is not good. The starter motr spec should say how many amps it needs to spin, naturally this will be in the middle of summer BUT it's something you should know. 100 ,200, 250 amps so think WELDING cable ( fat thumb) sized cables !
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 12 Jan 2025 at 4:41pm |
calico190xt68 wrote:
.... I did all of my starting tests with the charger attached and had 13 volts to the starter... |
Are you reading 13 volts at the starter while actually attempting cranking?
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 12 Jan 2025 at 7:37pm |
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I don't know how to test a starter on the bench besides jumper cableing it up to a battery and jumping the solinoid. It jumps and spins which usually means it works but there is no load to actually prove it's worth. All the cable work is a good thing but if still no go I'd be second guessing that starter.
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Les Kerf
Orange Level
Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 885
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Posted: 12 Jan 2025 at 10:52pm |
jaybmiller wrote:
......Now one 'problem' with reading ohms with any meter. With a DMM, DVM, short the leads together. what's the reading ? It should be ZERO, but often it'll be some 'low' number(say .05) Now read the cable, meter says .11 ohms so you think .11. oopsy.. you have to subtract the .05 FROM the .11 reading. That 9.06 in this case ) IS the correct cable resistance. which in this case means 100 x .05 = 5 volts dropped or lost ... |
Yup, as mentioned above, it is almighty difficult to obtain meaningful Ohm readings on battery cables in the field with ordinary meters. For example, 0000 Gauge copper is rated at having 0.0500 Ohms per one thousand feet according to www.engineeringtoolbox.com  Even a 10 Gauge wire is only 1.02 Ohms per thousand feet. It requires pretty sophisticated equipment to measure that, and even my trusty Fluke 88 meter isn't up to the task. The best tool is a clamp-on DC Ammeter used in conjunction with a good Voltmeter, but lacking that we can still get by with the Voltage drop tests under load when done carefully. If the engine barely cranks but the battery voltage remains high, then very little current is flowing, indicating high resistance somewhere in the circuit; testing each section of the circuit will reveal where the high resistance is. If the engine barely cranks and the battery voltage plummets, then there is either a very high load, a bad starter, or a bad battery. Or some combination of all three.
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Les Kerf
Orange Level
Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 885
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Posted: 12 Jan 2025 at 10:57pm |
SteveM C/IL wrote:
... All the cable work is a good thing but if still no go I'd be second guessing that starter. |
Yup. The high resistance I mentioned in the previous post could also be inside the starter itself.
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