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mufflerboltz 
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Location: New Glarus, Wi
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 Topic: Need cam and carb help
Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 7:21pm |
Just wanting to know if there is any stock cam, like out of a d17 or something, that would be a better cam to run in a wd45? Also would reworking a Marvel or Zenith be a good set up or should i look for something else? Then last but not least, what damn pistons should i run? one minute someone tells me wc flat tops then the next time its wd flat tops! Help and input would be greatly appreciated! Thanks
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wi50
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Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 9:07pm |
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I should have some ground cams for these things from Mike Jones cam designs. I'll have to look and see what's left, I just don't rember right now.
A late model cam from a gleaner E or late D-17 work well when degreed in correctly. But check your oil pump drive and make sute the tooth count is the same or you'll wreck it. But you'll be better off with a ground cam. I've seen several different grinds work well and a little of it depends on what master lobes the cam grinder has. A little tighter lobe seperation helps these engines out also.
WD and WC pistons are the same.
Get the valve bowls opened up and some decent angles cut on the valves and seats. Get the corners and floor of the port rounded off and same thing with the manifold. I usually try and keep some valve sets on hand to install a little larger valve.
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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mufflerboltz
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Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 9:14pm |
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thats the kinda info i was looking for! thanks! if you do have a cam let me know if you want to get rid of it and how much
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mufflerboltz
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Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 9:30pm |
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which is the better carb to have, the Marvel or Zenith? and how much work should i do to one?
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mlpankey
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Posted: 12 Oct 2012 at 4:19pm |
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The largest one that will still suck the fleshy part of your palm up at cranking speed. If its frosting up running then its still not big enough.
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Rod B
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Posted: 30 Oct 2012 at 7:32am |
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I hate to agravate the armchair expert but just how fleshy is the fleshy part of your hand? How would you know how fleshy mufflefboltz hands are? I would tend to say that venturi size has more to do with how signal is recognized than weather the carb is frosting up or not. Atmosperic conditions vary of course.
Put a vac gauge in the intake manifold and see what it reads at wide open throttle under full load. This reading will be a good starting point. Opinions vary on how much vac is needed but 5 to 7 inches on an updraft isn't to much
A carb a little to small is better than one a little to large, with to large of a venturi signal gets weak, the engine will run well but will lack the ability to make peak torque. There's good carbuerator people out there who can help find the right one.
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mlpankey
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Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 6:20pm |
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Its all about the size of the venturi that causes the frost.simple bigger carbs naturally have bigger venturi. Thats why jacks 350 inch engines from kentucky and Barney 392 inch engines run the moline g carb. Moline g icarb is good for 403a cubes at low rpms.
Edited by mlpankey - 03 Nov 2012 at 6:24pm
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mlpankey
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Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 7:18pm |
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Wheres rod is he looking into adiabtic expansion? Or would tbat be given him to much credit in the intelligence department.
Edited by mlpankey - 03 Nov 2012 at 7:23pm
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mlpankey
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Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 7:58pm |
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Well i was watching this post through the active user and see ole rod had read it but had no reply before going offline status. I guess i had given him to much credit in the intellegence department.
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Rod B
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Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 8:01pm |
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It took 4 days foe you to copy my post about venturi size. But venturi size isn't everythung. Compare carbs with the same venturi but different work done and you will get 2 different flow rateings. When possiable I hook a second vertical manometer th the main jet to measure booster signal. When properly sized 8.2" h20 at the main jet gives me a 12.2:1 air fuel ratio. I can size the venturi and tune the air fuel settings real close before running the engine.
Maybe I'll see you down in Gordyville. Bring your best.
Edited by Rod B - 03 Nov 2012 at 8:04pm
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mlpankey
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Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 8:13pm |
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Why reinvent the wheel when you have so many carb sizes you can find the right one and spend time in the easy chair. I havent seen a post on adiabtic expansion rate and how to small a venturi can cause frosting at any weather candition from you maybe you could make a link for it or is it just my post you like to keep available for readers.
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Rod B
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Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 8:32pm |
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People who don't know anything about a subject post links. Those who know can post information from their own mind.
You are not impressing anyone, only adding to your poor reputation. Do something to impress us.
I'm not bickering guys, I added some information relative to selecting the right carb that I hope will help some.
Ig mufflerboltz wants some easy figureing he can figure his engine size ,ultiply by srpm and divide by 3456 for a starting place in selecting the right carb.
226 x 1500 / 3456 = 98 cfm
240 x 1700 / 3456 = 118 cfm
Useing the rpm range where the engine is working, he could do a few mods to a tsx 464 carb and have all that he needs.
Edited by Rod B - 03 Nov 2012 at 8:42pm
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mlpankey
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Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 8:54pm |
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I am a bit of a pessimist when it comes to pulling carburator specialist who want to reshape a venturi and dont know adiabtic expansion. I have seen those they advertise in hook magazine and when the sucker i mean customer has complaints about their work its always well your engine demand isnt what you described. You can put a stock venturi back and it will run better then you can put a carb three sizes bigger that still pulls enougjh vacuum at cranking speed to hold your hand against it and it will run even better. Alot of snake oil salesman in antique pulling market.
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LouSWPA
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Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 9:17pm |
 mlpankey wrote:
Its all about the size of the venturi that causes the frost.simple bigger carbs naturally have bigger venturi. Thats why jacks 350 inch engines from kentucky and Barney 392 inch engines run the moline g carb. Moline g icarb is good for 403a cubes at low rpms. |
Uh, Mitch, I ain't lookin to get involved, or take sides, but the temp and relative humidity have a very large influence on the frosting up of a carb, enough so that I would suspect that "frosting" would be a very poor indicator of proper carb size. JMHO
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I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord;
be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27
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mlpankey
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Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 9:40pm |
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You can andjl will see some frosted in 100 degree southern summer pulling.
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LouSWPA
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Posted: 04 Nov 2012 at 7:47am |
mlpankey wrote:
You can andjl will see some frosted in 100 degree southern summer pulling. |
yet that same tractor, w/o any changes will not frost on a 100 degree Tuscon morning, so your rule of thumb is useless
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I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord;
be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27
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wi50
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Posted: 04 Nov 2012 at 8:26am |
I ran my 4 mph puller the other day moveing some corn around the dryer setup and it frosted up in November in north western Wisconsin. Funny thing is that it frosts up in May, June, July, August and September also. If I put my hand against it it will suck on my hand also, as long as the engine is turning over and the valves are moveing. I met a friend of mine Scott, in town to flow test some carbuerators. All updraft Marvel's for antique pulling application purposes. 3 carbs of the same core to start with. 1 stock rebuild, 1 with some modifications to the bowl and a thinned throttle shaft, and the third one with lots of bowl modifications to enhance flow, a custom venturi, bored neck and a custom throttle plate. We tested the carbs, swapped parts around, tried this and that and made up about every combination of work and parts to see what work is worth doing and what is a waste of time. We spent hours testing his carbs and checking for little things like where a littel airfoil made helps and where it hurts. What a different venturi that blends itself into the bowl can do, how much difference can the same venturi effect flow depending on other modifications done around it. We tested at 1.5"hg, 3"hg, and at 28" water for refrence to see what variations showed up at different test pressures. What we learnes isn't mine to share. It's his. I'm sorry I can't share it but he's the one who worked hard to get it. The flow bench doesn't lie, it only tells what makes a difference and what doesn't. It doesn't care how hard you work, and will tell what work is useless. Speaking of the Moline G type carbs though I've tested some at 120 cfm and I've tested them right near 200 cfm. It's all in the work done to them. But it takes more than frosty minds and chubby hands to do the work.
Edited by wi50 - 04 Nov 2012 at 8:28am
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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mlpankey
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Posted: 04 Nov 2012 at 1:14pm |
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Most of the carb complaints of being to big are at idle and transition off idle. Restricting idle circuit is less time consuming than working over a venturi building throttle plates etc. You even said in your post it took a lot of time. Your right small venturis cause frosting no matter the month.
Edited by mlpankey - 04 Nov 2012 at 1:21pm
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Rod B
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Posted: 04 Nov 2012 at 1:39pm |
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Idle circut needs to be opened up, not restricted.
Experience is your friend when posting.
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mlpankey
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Posted: 04 Nov 2012 at 5:45pm |
Rod B wrote:
Idle circut needs to be opened up, not restricted.
Experience is your friend when posting. |
on a small carb but on a too large carb restricted. need to read . plus one with a pump shot helps also.
Edited by mlpankey - 04 Nov 2012 at 5:46pm
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D21Puller
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Posted: 05 Nov 2012 at 7:49pm |
Heres some pics of the intake and header we built last summer. It's in a WC unstyled, not really sure of the power gain or losses from oe style manifold and carb. both carbs are from a wd. Intake runners are 19.5 inches long and designed to accomodate the larger marvel carb if more airflow is needed in the future. 3/8 plate bolted to the head, ordered a build it yourself sb chevy header kit from summit plus a few extra bent pipes and used some pieces left over from a custom header build job on my racing ranger. 
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D21Puller
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Posted: 05 Nov 2012 at 7:56pm |
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Sorry that the pics are so obnoxiously large; new to adding pictures to posts.
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D21Puller
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Posted: 05 Nov 2012 at 8:03pm |
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D21Puller
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Posted: 05 Nov 2012 at 8:05pm |
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DrAllis
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Posted: 06 Nov 2012 at 5:34am |
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What organization? or what class?? Open RPM's? or governor control??
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mlpankey
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Posted: 06 Nov 2012 at 6:55am |
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2 is always better than one . lets you tune air/fuel for a pair of cylinders instead of four . Have you noticed no 3 not running as lean with the pair as it does typicaly with a single? kinda got a crhrysler cross ram look or chevy dz302
Edited by mlpankey - 06 Nov 2012 at 7:04am
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wi50
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Posted: 06 Nov 2012 at 9:08am |
well that's neat D21puller.
I left something out of my first post in this thread to see what would happen. So now our resident experts will think of this and start agreeing with me and post more to feel important. So far no one has mentioned one of the most basic modifications for Mufflerboltz's cam and carb help.
A set of high ratio rocker arms will trick your engine into thinking your cam is a little bigger than it actually is.... sort of anyway. A little more advanced, and retarded valve action because of the incerase in ratio and also a little faster valve action which is in general a good thing. $400 and a call to Murphys Motor Service buys a set.
But if you are on the cheap and handy, like doing things yourself. IH 6 cyl diesel engines like the 806-1206 tractors IH 361 and 407 engines have a rocker arm that is really close to the Allis one. The Allis is a 1.45 ratio and the IH is 1.65 ratio. All give or take depending on how far off they are from the next one you measure.
I've put the IH ones on an Allis years ago. I'm sorry if I don't rember exactly what I had to do though, weather it was hone the rockers a couple thou or hone the Allis stands and use the IH shaft. I know I slotted the push rod holes in the head. It was a verry long time ago. After I broke enough at high RPM I made a billet setup back in the day.
I might just have some IH ones in my pail of rocker arms if it intrests you mufflerboltz, they're free if they're here.
Edited by wi50 - 06 Nov 2012 at 9:10am
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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D21Puller
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Posted: 06 Nov 2012 at 6:27pm |
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Dr. Allis we do not pull with any organization, between work and life in general I rarely have the time to make the drive and compete with any of the clubs in our area. We may attend some of the closer to home brush-fair pulls a year and some fun pulls at tractor shows. The governor does control the speed at around 2200, i would like to speed things up but need to spend some money on a steel flywheel and beef up the bottom end first. Most of the time i try to get in a mph class under 5000 or if a open class was available for under 4500. We have a barney cam to install but have not done so yet, maybe this winter if i dont spend all my free time working on others projects. Figured the long runners would help with torque besides the factory manifold design looks hideous from a airflow standpoint. The individual pipes merge into a 3" collector, we put a 5" pipe over the outside just to keep people from being nosy.
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wi50
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Posted: 07 Nov 2012 at 6:51am |
mlpankey wrote:
Well i was watching this post through the active user and see ole rod had read it but had no reply before going offline status. I guess i had given him to much credit in the intellegence department. |
Not to kick dead horses but I've had a lingering questiin. Why would you post this? Is it to elevate your internet stalker status to something higher like a "serial stalker"???? Or simply from arrogance and ignorance? Please don't reply we really don't need to know the answer as....... I'm just pokeing fun so others have something to laugh at this fine morning.
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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mufflerboltz
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Posted: 07 Nov 2012 at 12:51pm |
to be honest i cant even stand to read post from my own subject cuz it always goes back to these two bickering on the same topic they bickered about dozen of times! All im asking for is help and advise on how to make my tractor more competitive for next year! im not looking to stick thousands of dollars into it, all i want is to be around 60 hp! I do appreciate the advise from some of you, and you know who you are, but please stop the nonsense, I just stupid reading it! So on to better subjects, yes wi50 i'd be interested in the rockers if there is an advantage to them, i do plan on running a better engine kit instead of the original internals i already have. i am also going to do a little port work and vale cutting. as far as a carb i learned alot about flow in different sizes where bigger is not always better! Now im on the search for a good cam!
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