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edmo 
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Location: So. Missouri
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 Topic: Magnetic Switch
Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 5:17pm |
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Yep, it's me again looking for the current drain on the 180 diesel. Where is the thing called a magnetic switch in the schematic physically located and what does it look like? I think I found it but the wire going to the switch is the wrong color (probably no big deal). And I assume it powers the manifold heater when the key switch is turned on ACC.
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jaybmiller
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Location: Greensville,Ont
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Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 5:27pm |
hmm.. magnetic switch' ? Is that some weird name for the 'starter solenoid' that allows power from battery to the 'glow plug' ? I had one on my A-C forklift...it'd suck a good battery dead pretty fast, got rid of it, use 2-3 squirts of ether instead....
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 5:33pm |
There's several types of switches that get referred to as 'magnetic switches', but usually a magnetic switch is a type that has a magnet (say, on a door) and a switch (mounted on the door frame) such that the switch detects the presence of the magnetic field. In the case of a door-controlled dome light, when the door is open, the switch contacts are closed, and the light illuminates, and vise versa.
A magnetic switch on a mechanical linkage would be used to detect when the linkage was in a certain position.
It is uncommon, but not unusual for a a relay or contactor to be referred to as a 'magnetic switch'.
A typical relay or contactor uses magnetic force developed by a coil, to pull in the shorting bar to a pair of contacts. In DC, it is also referred to as a 'solenoid'.
Most of the time, the operation of a relay, contactor, or solenoid is fairly simple (voltage across coil creates magnetic field which operates the contacts).
There are SOME devices which use a coil to pull the actuating armature into the coil, and THEN... a permanent magnet (which is too weak to pull in, but strong enough to hold) will hold the armature in the activated position, until some other force (like a physical trip lever, or a lever on a second control coil, or even a reversal of polarity on the coil, will cancel out the permanent field, and allow the contacts to reset.
They may have used a special relay to operate the manifold heater... and they MAY have referred to it as a 'magnetic switch'.
There is also a type of manual switch (meaning, push the button) and a magnet HOLDS it into position, until some RESET device (like a lever, or a thermal element, or a rejection coil) resets it...
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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JC-WI
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Location: wisconsin
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Posted: 16 Sep 2021 at 8:51am |
Looking at diagram for 180, it shows magnetic switch in the circuit of manifold heater and wire '3' being a red-white wire going from small terminal up to key switch S terminal. S terminal should be for when key switch is turned over to the momentary contact psition as in when turning key over in your truck to start the engine. Is the wire from solenoid going to 'I' terminal on switch? Thinking about your wire to heater solenoid, if heater is in working shape and your having voltage going down to it from key switch, it would drain your battery in a very short order, unless it is already burnt out. Now if solenoid contactor coil is bad and some how shorting to hot post, which I can not see how it can do that, it would be sending current back up to the key switch which would end at the 's' terminal. Wire going to solenoid for manifold heater should not be to accessory. Factory key switch, there are just three terminals, 'B' for battery, 'S' for start, starter, solenoid,, take your pick, and 'I' terminal for IGNITION / instruments.
the 'S' terminal of switch feeds only the solenoid to manifold heater. the 'I' terminal feeds the starter button on dash which that continues on to foot clutch safety switch which continues on to the I terminal on solenoid of starter. I terminal on key switch also feeds the #2 post on regulator,the fuse in panel, which continues on to feed the fuel gauge, water temp gauge and the engine oil pressure warning light and that continues on to the oil pressure switch which is grounded when no oil pressure is sensed... and opens when there is pressure. Previously you had said you had current at alternator on F terminal when key was shut off and you could pull 1 or 3 at the regulator and it would quit the draw of current. Now you have current also at manifold heater solenoid? Does disconnecting small terminal at solenoid stop the draw?
Solenoid heater solenoid, (magnetic switch) looks like this... or like this
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
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edmo
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Posted: 17 Sep 2021 at 1:15pm |
Yep JC, it's the one in top picture plus a lot of persian orange overspray and grime. any way when I disconnect all wires on it, the battery current draw stays the same.
On the switch issue, I don't think I have original ignition, I suspect a Steiner replacement as it has machine studs rather than plug blades. Ignition is in the middle and batt, start, and ACC around the parameter. Was checking voltages across various switch terminals and came up with another question. Would that ignition switch be grounded through the metal dash panel or no? When it's removed from the dash panel, my ohm draw drops a bunch. Maybe the guy left out a nylon or neoprene washer when he replaced switch?
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edmo
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Posted: 17 Sep 2021 at 1:31pm |
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I think that was a dumb question I asked about the possible missing insulator between the switch body and the dash panel since all the terminals are all separated in a bakelite, or otherwise non conducting material on the back. But question still remains about the ohm draw drop when the switch is not in the dash panel, but with wiring connections still intact. Maybe some current leakage inside a bad switch??
Edited by edmo - 17 Sep 2021 at 1:32pm
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JC-WI
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Posted: 18 Sep 2021 at 2:20am |
Here is the correct switch. ACS292 Ignition/Key Switch OEM switch It has 5 spade terminals This is a 3 position switch (Off | On | Momentary) The switch has a drain hole 2 keys 1 jam nut 1 internal lock nut washer The threaded stem size measures 9/16" - 24 UNEF
Below is a switch used in the 7000 series with screw lugs, little different but should still have bat terminal, I terminal for ignition, and the S terminal for start. Does your switch look like this? Could be junk inside, or a stray hot wire touching it. Switch housing should not be hot.
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 18 Sep 2021 at 8:42am |
If an ignition switch or aux. switches housing is getting hot, there's an internal issue with the switch. Usually, a hot circuit is grounding in the switch causing the housing to get hot. You wanna' change that ASAP. That type of issue will cause a lot of problems with wires, plugs connectors melting etc. One thing over the years that I've seen building these wiring systems and inspecting the OEM harnesses, is the Ignition switches that are used are borderline at best for handling loads. Its amazing to me, how long some of em' been in service. Most have been replaced numerous times over the years, (along with wiring or plugs) but the loads running through them are much more than they can handle. That's one reason why I offer optional much heavier switches for my new systems which are at least twice the rating of the OEM pieces. This way current loads are not an issue, and other accessories can be added to the system without a problem. This is one of the main reasons why its tough for me to get an original un-cobbled OEM harness to use as a pattern on some model Tractors. They've burnt up so many times the original wiring is long gone.......
Steve@B&B
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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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JC-WI
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Posted: 18 Sep 2021 at 10:10am |
Switches can be a headache for sure. I amnot a real supporter of the slip-on connectors. Sure they are faster to attach at the factory, but given time those connections will eventually rust or get heated and fail... which will also fail the switches too from the resistance heat. Key switches have a problem being in the elements of water and dirt too. If everything was kept inside... many problems would never arise. The Indak key switch is basically at it's capacity with what is required of it as long as all the othe comonents are functioning good, but if a short or something happens, Then you can expect trouble at the next weakest link.... or connector or wire or switch. and then there are those that 'upgrade their lights and go from 3 35 watt lights to 3 5o watt halogen lights and the light switches over time can't stand the extra strain on them and burn up... either from the slip fit terminals start glowing or the contactors inside. The next time I rewire a tractor like the 170, I will be using fuses for each circuit and the light switch will be running relay switchs, that way the relay is going to take the brunt of the load instead of the light switch... But it also creates a more complicated wiring system, and more possible places for failure.  Yes, Steve , heavier switches would have been better for the long haul... but then again, some of the tractors never had the switches changed out either. goes back to the elements and care...
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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edmo
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Posted: 18 Sep 2021 at 10:29am |
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Mine is the one with the tri-star shape and stud in the center. With all that said, what would be recommended for a replacement. I'm still using the push button for momentary, but can ditch it if can be problematic.
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Alex09(WI)
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Posted: 18 Sep 2021 at 12:09pm |
the good push button switches from USA or mexico hardly ever give problems. you will wear the rubber button out before the switch goes bad. Stay away from the india/china/taiwan switches.
I would replace your key switch back to the original Indak switch with spade terminals, i have known those tri-star shape switches to go bad on the inside after a while.
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JC-WI
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 9:20am |
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Ed, Think you better ditch that tristar switch if the housing is hot. Sounds like it has failed.
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 9:31am |
It's common for switches to 'corrode' to the point where current is drawn from the +bat terminal to the case,which usually is attached to a steel dash..so it is grounded. Lawn tractors with INDAK switches fail, usually cause the rider's left in the rain....ANY moisture will allow electrons to flow from BAT to GND. Real tractors, generally are in barns or sheds, so it'll take longer to fail. Classic problem though is the AMMETER...corrosion around the mtg posts which are LIVE 24/7 and slooooowly the battery drains all of it's electrons...
The studded switch is a better built unit than the indak, it'll handle 35 amps. 'Automotive' use, 'riders' are maybe 15 amps. Over the years ,guys will add lights and radios and such increasing the amps being used but never upgrade the switch. Eventually it fails(excessive arcing, insulator burns, etc)
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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edmo
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 1:32pm |
Have decided to go whole hog. I'm replacing the ignition switch and adding a heavy duty switch on the dash for the battery ground. Will need a checklist for takeoff  . Right to left on dash panel will have ignition switch, push button start, fuel shutoff, and electrical shutoff. If I reconnect the clutch switch I'll be up to five and need a co-pilot.
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JC-WI
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Posted: 19 Sep 2021 at 10:56pm |
Ed, Simplest place to put the ground disconnect switch is right down there by the batteries, right there on the end plate. Run your negative cables right to the ground switch and then run the heavier ground strap to where the other ground straps were connected before. So, before you step up to get on, just reach out and turn the disconnect on and then crawler up... and go through your pilot pre-op.
My old 170 has never had the key switch changed out yet, tho I have had to change the light switch 3 times because of my need for brighter lights and loading the light switch with 5 juice eating Halogens. and the last light switch (used) just turns the driving lights on now because I ran the work lights and flashers through two toggle switches down below the dash. 175 watts (5x35watts), Halogen at 55 watts. (5x55) = 275 watts. 100 watts more than factory had on the switch for a load.. As for the key switch, in it's momentary contact, it energizes the solenoid for the starter... Push button is not used anymore. Now mind you the old tractor has seen a lot of use, 20,000+ guesstiment hours on it. and starts every day in the winter for sure. and sits out in the weather year around, when it should have been under a roof. Here is a pic of the dash of my 170... same hours on tach since 1987.
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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