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IB generator diagnosis update

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Freewheeling View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Freewheeling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: IB generator diagnosis update
    Posted: 18 Sep 2023 at 12:19pm
A couple weeks back I posted on issues with my IB charging system. Here's the histroy and what I've found so far.   

I disassembled and replaced the brushes, bushing bearing, & end cap because 3rd brush post was bent. I coated the wire from the field coil where it had been rubbing on the commutator.

Reassembled the generator and fired up the tractor.  At half-throttle the amp meter went all the way over to full charge of 20 amps.  Moving the 3rd brush didn’t make any difference.  Thought perhaps it was the amp gauge so I opened the switch box.  I removed the old gauge but discovered that the new gauge I had would not fit in the switch box cover so I reassembled with the old gauge. While attempting to close the switch box the box rubbed through a wire in the harness and shorted out resulting in sparks and smoke. I disconnected the battery, taped up the wire, and reassembled the box.  I restarted the tractor and the amp gauge showed 20 amps discharge and the cutout didn’t close.

I removed the generator and disassembled.  Tested the system with a multimeter set at 200 ohms.  I then reassembled and tested again. Results:

3rd brush and F terminal – Disassembled 2.2-2.3 ohms Assembled – Same

F terminal to ground (case) – Disassembled – Open Loop (OL)  Assembled 3.3 ohms

3rd brush to ground (case) – Assembled - 0 .3 ohms

Main brush (not the grnd) to ground (case) – 0.3 ohms

“A” terminal to ground (case) – 0.3 ohms

 

 There is no evidence of any damage or deterioration in the circuitry within the generator or the wiring harness other than at the entry to the switch box where I taped it up.   There is continuity in the wire from the 3-way “S” terminal to the headlights and taillight.  There is also continuity in the wire from the generator Field terminal to the 3-way and in the wire from the “B” terminal on the cutout to the (-) side of the amp gauge. The fuse is good. The resistor reads 3.3 ohms. The switch box has a clean, bright connection to the steering post. Battery reads 6.3 volts.

I opened the switch box and removed the tape from the wiring harness.  The shorted wire is the one that connects the cutout battery terminal to the amp gauge (-).  This might explain why both the cutout quit working and the gauge shows discharge after the short.  ???

Finally, with the switch box still open I ran a jumper from the base of the 3-way switch to the bolt that attaches the box to the steering post.   With 3-way switch all the way in and one probe on the end of the “F” terminal wire and the other on the battery + post I got 3.8 ohms.  With the switch both halfway and all the way out I got 0.1 ohms.

If anyone sees something that could cause the problem please let me know. 

I’m on my way to a electrical repair shop to get a new cutout and have the generator bench tested. 


Thanks y'all!!
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WF owner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2023 at 7:12am
Just a suggestion, but instead of getting a new cutout, think about replacing the cutout with a voltage regulator and replacing the headlight switch with a regular push-pull switch. 
I have converted a few over the years and I like the voltage regulators much better. No more overcharging battery.
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2023 at 8:14am
the short story is there is not a good way to get the generator to put out 20 amps, without GROUNDING the  "F" terminal.... that can be internal, the wire to the switch, or the switch itself............. I dont see any other way to do it... but have no explaination of the resistance numbers you measure.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2023 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

the short story is there is not a good way to get the generator to put out 20 amps, without GROUNDING the  "F" terminal.... that can be internal, the wire to the switch, or the switch itself............. I dont see any other way to do it... but have no explaination of the resistance numbers you measure.


Yup, I'm with you on this Steve, which is why on his previous thread I had suggested that he test the generator by bypassing the stock wiring; he is now going to pay someone to do this for him in their shop. Probably a good plan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Freewheeling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2023 at 6:55am
The shop checked the generator and got a 5 amp discharge so I'm replacing the ammeter.  The shop will get into the genny next week.  

Since everything else seems to be OK and the only thing I didn't check was the armature, I'm thinking that's the cause of the malfunction.  

As for the cutout, I know a regulator is a better option and use them on my work tractors but I want to restore the IB to as original as possible.  She's going to be a trailer queen.Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2023 at 9:55am
Thanks for the update, let us know what they find in the generator.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2023 at 5:47pm
It probably needs an Arm. It's a common thing. That's why I automatically change them out anytime I rebuild a unit for a customer. I don't get involved with messin' around with a 60+ year old Arm even if it shows good. It's like using a old pair of laces on a new pair of shoes......
Steve@B&B
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Freewheeling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2023 at 8:02am
Steve -What's the price of a new armature? Are the truly new or reman?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2023 at 8:01pm
For my rebuilds I have my rewinder whittle me a fresh arm so it's like new when done. I have him wind them a little "tighter" as well when he does them, especially the arms for the Starter motors. Gives em' a little more torque especially on the 6V units. Thumbs Up
Steve@B&B
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Freewheeling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2023 at 10:40pm
Price?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2023 at 4:54am
If it's a 6V Gennie, they usually run around $250-$275. to rebuild from me for the cutout version. If you want to move to a VR and get away from the charging side of the light switch it usually runs around $325. which includes the wiring from the Gennie to the VR. Both are dialed in on my 881 machine, so all components are mated to work together.  I don't sell components for the Gennie's or Starter motors. To many variables inside these old units. Lots of times the books are incorrect anyway. I only build complete units....
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Freewheeling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2023 at 7:55am
I picked up the generator from the repair shop.  The tech who worked on it found nothing wrong with the components (fields, armature, brushes, etc.) However he said the third brush was set close to the main brush and the genny was putting out 45 amps.  With the 3rd brush set all the way back it still puts out 14 amps. I questioned whether that seemed normal.   Based upon what I've been told there should only be 5-7 amps output when fully grounded. He was a younger guy and seemed to know what he was talking about.  There is an old fossil like me in the shop so if this doesn't make sense I'll ask him to look at it. 

By the way, I did find an original Duetz-Allis 20 amp ammeter made in the USA.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2023 at 8:04am
I'd expect 15 amps when 'fully grounded', 5-8ish when resistor is in series,depending on resistor value.
Old skool idea was gennys don't put  a lot out, BUT run all day long, so batteries get fully recharged. If you only do 'short run' operations better to swap over to alternator or put battery charger on tractor every day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2023 at 8:05am
14 amps fully ground is on the HIGH SIDE... But probably not a big deal as you normally dont run fully grounded.... You can also change the RESISTOR value a little bit if you dont like the charging amps you get running thru it.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Freewheeling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2023 at 8:43am
OK. Great.  Info I had was 3 amps through the resistor to the battery (switch all the way in) and 5-7 in the second & third positions.  I suppose there is a lot of variability in these old systems and if you use some common sense it's not a big deal.  I was surprised to learn that a 6 volt genny could put out 45 amps. 

The shop changed the bearing which I had provided, cleaned up the commutator,  reset the 3rd brush, and tested another armature I had. Charged me $50.  Very willing to answer any questions.  Fondy Auto Electric in Fond du Lac, Wis. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Freewheeling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2023 at 8:52am
Original resistors were 3 amp and the one I installed is 3.3 amp.  So I'll be putting 10+ amps to the battery with the switch all the way in.  It's a bit high but since she won't see a lot of run hours  I don't think it will matter. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2023 at 9:10am
You can always add another 2- 3 OHM resistor in the "F" wire to the switch at a later date if needed... It does not need to be on the switch...

Edited by steve(ill) - 04 Oct 2023 at 9:10am
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Freewheeling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2023 at 2:42pm
Eueka!  My IB charging system is finally fixed. Beside the genny end plate and brushes I had to replace the ammeter, generator mounting bracket, and fan belt. I was able to find a NOS ammeter and slotted mounting bracket. Apparently the old ammeter was defective which resulted in the high discharge reading.  I have a new wiring harness coming from B&B which should bring the entire system up to snuff.     I now actually understand how these old electrical systems work. Thanks for all your input.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2023 at 11:46am
Thanks for the update, it is so nice to know what actually solved the problem; far too many of these threads end with no resolution.
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