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herm0016 
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Location: Longmont, CO
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 Topic: HYDRAULIC TOP LINK 5020
Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 1:42pm |
I just signed up. Excited to have my AC 5020 with factory loader, mfwd.
I would like to add a hydraulic top link for running a set of forks and my JD 80 rear blade. i think i may add a grapple at some point as well and it would be great to use the same circuit for that, i do not think i will need both at the same time and could just have a chain or solid top link on standby when i want to use the grapple.
I have some hydraulic knowledge, but mostly with hand pumps and oilfield equipment and not tractors and valves.
does anyone have some kind of diagram or help with where this would be connected to the tractors hydraulic system?
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 2:58pm |
Welcome. There is a bunch of helpful and good people on this forum.
I bought a hydraulic top link off of Amazon last year:
It is cat 2 and I thought it would be the best thing since sliced bread, but it has given me trouble. I have used it on both the 190XT and the 7010 with a bale mover and whenever I try to raise round bales at 1,000 -1,200 pound bales it won't lift them. I paid about $260 so I might have been a little cheap on it. Without a round bale it works so apparently the hydraulic cylinder isn't big enough, but it was rated at 6400 pounds pushing and 6700 lbs pulling. That should handle a round bale.
Also, the top link moves very quickly up and down, but I don't know how to adjust anything to make it work better. I am guessing a more expensive top link might be better. Let me know if you find something better.
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80 7010 w/Cab, 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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Joe(TX)
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Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 3:56pm |
If you use a larger bore cylinder it will react slower. I made mine from a 3 1/2 bore cylinder. Another way is to put adjustable flow valve or a restrictor orifice or restrictor fitting.
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1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 5:44pm |
this.... whenever I try to raise round bales at 1,000 -1,200 pound bales it won't lift them. ..just seems to be a bad idea. I wouldn't think a top link should be used that way.. I thought it was supposed to 'position' the implement, once, when mounted onto the tractor. The 3point arms do the real lifting ?
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 10:18pm |
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You are right, I don't raise the bale with the top link, but rather use the 3pt to fully raise. What I do though is tip the toplink forward before moving and then tip it backward over the bale ring with the top link, once I have it fully lifted. My bale rings are kind of tall. Bad news is it will not always tip forward for me to move. It will always go backward. Maybe my idea to use the toplink as I am was not meant to work that way as you point out? My Frontloader was broken and this was my work around. I hope I am able to get FEL fixed soon.
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80 7010 w/Cab, 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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Gary Burnett
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Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 12:50am |
 calico190xt68 wrote:
You are right, I don't raise the bale with the top link, but rather use the 3pt to fully raise. What I do though is tip the toplink forward before moving and then tip it backward over the bale ring with the top link, once I have it fully lifted. My bale rings are kind of tall. Bad news is it will not always tip forward for me to move. It will always go backward. Maybe my idea to use the toplink as I am was not meant to work that way as you point out? My Frontloader was broken and this was my work around. I hope I am able to get FEL fixed soon. |
No reason a cylinder instead of a standard top link shouldn't be used as you described. It'd be pretty handy a lot of times especially with rear 3pt forks.
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Jim.ME
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Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 5:25am |
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To me it sounds like the top link cylinder you got isn't large enough. You say it is rated at 6400 pushing and 6700 pulling, which didn't sound right. When I took a look at the link you provided; it says 6700 lbs. pushing and 4300 lbs. lifting (which would be pulling). That makes sense as the piston end of a cylinder (push) has more surface to develop force, at a given pressure, on than the rod end (pulling) due to the surface lost in the rod area.
Those forces would be developed in direct line with the cylinder. When you add in the geometry of your spear carrier and use the full weight of the bale applied to the spear at the center of the spear's length, it is likely not cylinder enough. Can you tip it all the way "up" before you lift the bale off the ground? If it will and you can then pick it up; it will hold until the check valves fail or the packing blows.
Also have you checked to see if your tractor's hydraulic operating pressure is up to spec?
Edited by Jim.ME - 19 Jun 2019 at 5:27am
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 5:33am |
Ok, I got a clear picture !
Simple test... reverse the toplink( swap mtg ends) and see what happens. As Jim.ME points out cylinders can 'push' more than they can 'pull'. It 'might' work for you if not, then a larger bore cylinder is needed. Just be sure the biger round one WILL clear 'stuff' ! Jay
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Jim.ME
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Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 6:12am |
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I don't think swapping ends will prove anything. The cylinder has to get longer (push - cylinder must extend) to tip down and get shorter (pull - cylinder must retract) to tip up. Only difference is longer hoses may be needed if the barrel end is the moving component instead of the rod end.
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Tbone95
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Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 8:31am |
Jim.ME wrote:
I don't think swapping ends will prove anything. The cylinder has to get longer (push - cylinder must extend) to tip down and get shorter (pull - cylinder must retract) to tip up. Only difference is longer hoses may be needed if the barrel end is the moving component instead of the rod end. |
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herm0016
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Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 8:52am |
yes, they have different force due to the difference in effective area one side having the area of the rod removed and one side with the full bore diameter. I would swap it to see if that helps. put a pressure gauge inline and you can calculate the force you are applying in each direction. the forces you quote are probably at the max rated pressure for the cylinder.
I am mostly going to be using it with forks and a back blade for moving pallets and for grading the drive.
I will be able to easly size my cylinder, its the plumbing that I need help on. where do i get pressure and where do i return it to the transmission? Can I T off the loader supply hoses? what kind of valve should i be looking at? i will want it to be able to float as well.
I am a mechanical engineer as well.
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Tbone95
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Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 9:22am |
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I don't care what end of the link you attach to what, what hose you hook to what end, or anything of the sort, 1 thing will remain constant: Oil will be supplied to the piston end to extend the rod. This direction will be the highest force. Oil will be supplied to the rod end to retract it, this will act faster but with lower force. To tilt/lift a bale with this arrangement, you're stuck with making the cylinder retract to lift, unless you fabricate a linkage to pivot the force.
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Joe(TX)
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Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 9:38am |
You can't just tee off the loader line. You would need a selector valve to switch between cylinders. As already stated, it does not matter which way the cylinder is mounted, you are still retracting the cylinder when you lift in this application. The only thing that would help is to have the cylinder mounted higher up (farther away from the 3 point pins).
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1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A
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Fred in Pa
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Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 9:47am |
To answer your last ? does anyone have some kind of diagram or help with where this would be connected to the tractors hydraulic system? Give me a call if you want . 717-634 -4398 8 am to 7 pm eastern time .
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 12:19pm |
I kind of jumped in the middle of this post while offering what I did and kind of failed at, but I do appreciate the explanations. I would think forks and a pallet would be similar to a bale unless there isn't really any weight being moved on the pallets. In my case, the cylinder works without a load. I have used two different tractors and the hydraulics on both are fine when used on other implements. I haven't pressure tested them but I think they are OK. I misread the up and down force so I conclude that it is probably small for my use although 4300 seemed big enough. I didn't know to calculate the leverage so learned something there. However, I might change which hole I place the top link in both the bale mover and the tractor and see if it changes it marginally. I also have a quick hitch that will change the leverage and I will see if that matters. Before I completely abandon my $260. Won't be the first farm equipment fail I have had.
I didn't realize that a 5020 was such a small tractor when I read this originally and not sure about the hydraulics on it. I have another tractor that has a front loader on it and I got one of those 6 port selector valves that you push in or pull out that will switch the flow from one set of hoses to the other. Joe(tx) described that above. I hooked the incoming lines into one set of ports, the Loader lines into another set and the rear remotes into the other set. Works great but you have to have a place to mount it and you cannot use the front loader at the same time as the rear remote but simple to push or pull to select what you want. Not sure if this will work on a 5020. They cost about $100, use 1/2 inch lines and you can get one from northern tool or amazon. I would think this would work fine for you but beware of my free advice. :-) I would call "Fred in Pa" because he probably knows the 5020.
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80 7010 w/Cab, 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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herm0016
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Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 1:00pm |
Yes, the 5020 is a compact i guess? its not large but it has been very useful and sure beats a shovel when moving many many yards of dirt, compost, mulch, and gravel. I have some repairs to do on the blade as well as it appears that one of its previous owners cut off some of the mount and fabed up their own with different dimensions from a standard 3 point. It was not obvious until i got it mounted to the tractor. I anticipate wanting just a single rear remote for whatever task. i would like to be able to use the loader without too much changing back and forth.
I appreciate the offer Fred has put forth and will take him up on it. a selector valve could be useful if i get around to building the grapple. I should have room on the left fender, as the power steering valve is on the right fender, or i can build a mount for the right side to hold a tool box and the extra valves off the loader frame.
Edited by herm0016 - 19 Jun 2019 at 1:01pm
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 2:19pm |
Seems like every old tractor I own has some rig job/bad weld job on it. The short cuts taken to fix some of these tractors have amazed me because the right fix wasn't that expensive or time-consuming, but good luck on getting it back in shape.
Looking at the tractor, a fender mount isn't a bad idea. I mounted mine on the vertical post of the front loader as a better idea for me as you outlined.
The hydraulic lines can get in your way so think through the length of your hoses and routing the hoses.
Nice of Fred to offer his phone number. That's why this is the best forum out there for AC farm equipment. Good luck.
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80 7010 w/Cab, 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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herm0016
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Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 11:29am |
getting back around to this. after reading and learning more. Fred, i would still like to chat. Life and all that. we are foster parents and got a placement, been all consuming and is not settling in well.
I did learn that the loader and the power steering is being run off the aux circuit on the right side of the transmission. their is a priority valve on the fender between the aux, power steering / loader circuits. My loader valve does have power beyond, but I would not mind being able to use a rear remote with or without the loader attached.
I did get my JD 80 blade all fixed up and its a great. perfect for counterweight and use as a parking brake, as the brakes do not work very well at all on the tractor!. I think i am going to pull the hood and give it some paint and new decals this fall, and then the fenders. that should get her looking proper.
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5020 MFWD Power steering
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 12:33pm |
Tbone95 wrote:
I don't care what end of the link you attach to what, what hose you hook to what end, or anything of the sort, 1 thing will remain constant: Oil will be supplied to the piston end to extend the rod. This direction will be the highest force. Oil will be supplied to the rod end to retract it, this will act faster but with lower force. To tilt/lift a bale with this arrangement, you're stuck with making the cylinder retract to lift, unless you fabricate a linkage to pivot the force. |
Kinda like flipping the auger screw end for end.....
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allisrutledge
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Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 12:48pm |
SteveM C/IL wrote:
Tbone95 wrote:
I don't care what end of the link you attach to what, what hose you hook to what end, or anything of the sort, 1 thing will remain constant: Oil will be supplied to the piston end to extend the rod. This direction will be the highest force. Oil will be supplied to the rod end to retract it, this will act faster but with lower force. To tilt/lift a bale with this arrangement, you're stuck with making the cylinder retract to lift, unless you fabricate a linkage to pivot the force. |
Kinda like flipping the auger screw end for end..... |
I might just hafta agree!
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Allis Chalmers still exist in my mind and barns
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john(MI)
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Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 7:14pm |
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In the 5020 book I have it shows an optional rear remote outlet, and associated plumbing. I asked here some time back if anyone knew of where I might get the kit, and got no replies.
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herm0016
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Posted: 21 Dec 2019 at 7:50pm |
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Most parts are not available for these. Esp. Accesories.
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5020 MFWD Power steering
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TramwayGuy
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Posted: 22 Dec 2019 at 10:39am |
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As far as I know, power steering was not available on the 5020 (or 5030; which I have one of).
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herm0016
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Posted: 22 Dec 2019 at 11:02am |
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It was via a 3rd party kit.
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5020 MFWD Power steering
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TramwayGuy
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Posted: 22 Dec 2019 at 11:33am |
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Who made it? Jackson? There’s really no way to put it on anywhere that I can see?
Do you have any photos?
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herm0016
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Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 2:33pm |
the kit was bought in 2014 from jacksonpowersteering@gmail.com roland jackson. that is all the info I have. there is a priority valve on the fender between the loader and transmission.
Edited by herm0016 - 09 Apr 2020 at 2:36pm
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5020 MFWD Power steering
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