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oljoe 
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 Topic: HD6E steering problems
Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 12:02pm |
My brother and I just bought a HD6E. The engine and master clutch work fine but the steering clutches and brakes work for maybe 2 turns and quit working. Can someone tell me where to start looking to fix the problem.
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 12:35pm |
what is the problem , slips, or wont release ?
if they slip they need cleaning , depending if updated to HD11 or they have the old fiber clutch plates.
Look inside clutch/brake housing (accessable through plate on rear casting top) clean out all the crud inside case. Next install a 3/4" plug in lower side of case in drain hole . Add 3 to 4 gallons cleaning agent into each clutch housing (diesel or stoddard solvent) run machine back and forth and work clutches and brake to get solvent into clutch drum.
Remove cleaner from case , block clutch levers in pulled position, to allow to dry. leave set for while to get all solution to drain from unit. Work machine lightly to finish drying unit.
If brake bands are worn or not adjusted the machine will not turn sharply so might need to adjust bands and the support bolt on bottom of case that holds ban from ridding on drum .
HD5 and HD6 use the same rear housing and parts in the final drives, HD11 Clutch plates and discs are the same size but a different drum and count of plates.
Edited by Coke-in-MN - 19 Apr 2011 at 12:37pm
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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oljoe
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 1:07pm |
Thanks Coke. The clutches are not slipping. They won’t release. The brakes don’t seem to apply either. I tried rolling the machine and then hit the brakes and nothing happened. Like the brakes were not working. All of this after it stopped steering.
I was told that there is a pump that supplies power to the clutches and brakes. Could that be the problem? What oil does that pump run off of?
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AC Mel
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 3:58pm |
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Oljoe,I'm familiar with your problem, but don't have the answer yet. I've been going to turn it loose on the forum here for input. We have a HD6E with the same problem. The oil to run the brakes and steering clutches comes from the bottom of the transmission (where there is a suction screen inside the transmission)thru an approx. 1'' steel suction tube with 3 or4 rubber hose couplers with stainless clamps (that could or could not allow suction line leaks) to a set of 2 pumps attached together in the front of your engine under your fuel pump. (hard to get to). 1 pump runs the left clutch and the right brake the other pump runs the right clutch and left brake. The pressure line from each pump runs to an individual filter at the back of each battery box accessible from the outside (between the fuel tank and battery box). From the filters it goes to the steering clutch control valve under the seat where it's dispensed to wherever you want to turn and brake to.(and return to the sump). So we have cleaned the suction screen,changed the oil,changed the filters,tightened all the suction line clamps and checked the oil pressures(when it was working). Our tractor seems to work ok when it's cold, when it warms up to good operating temps(5-25 min) one side quits working first and then eventually the other. If it sits for a day or so it will work again for awhile. Things we haven't checked yet is the pump drive shaft from the engine. We have acquired an HD6EP dozer that we know would brake the pump driveshaft, but everything would stop and not work at all. We're going to bring the tractor in and go to the pump and pump drive next. I think this is the same problem you are experiencing. I know there's forum help out there they just haven't read our problem yet
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gemdozer
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 4:35pm |
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If you have a double pump near the fuel pump you have a wet master cluch and wet stering cluch and you should have oil filter and a streaner and after 5 to 25 min. workink the streaner is plugg or the stering cluch pump is too worn.
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 5:54pm |
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so the 6E is pedal steer or still lever steer , sounds like if lever it is hyd assist. To new for the info i gave then.
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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oljoe
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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 7:20pm |
Thanks for the replies.
Mel your problem sounds similar to what I have but this machine only will turn a couple of times and then not turn until it cools. I don’t have the dozer here yet so I can’t tear into it yet. The guy that we got it from said he had the pump replaced with a used one and still had the same problem. I guess the used pump could be bad also. If I find anything out I’ll let you know.
Coke, This dozer has levers for the clutches and pedals for the brakes and nether work after I turn it a couple of times. That makes me think that it is an issue with the pump.
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 10:58am |
So it is hyd assisted brake and steering , early HD6 and all Hd5 had all mechanical so lot of pull was needed .. Should be able to tap hyd system to those areas and see what pressure is or variation from cold to hot.
My FD5 has full hyd clutch and brake , actuated by brake pedal, I had one of the "O" rings fail on left drum, this ended up causing loss of clutch and brake on machine.
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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AC Mel
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Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 9:41pm |
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Coke, yes that's correct. About half way thru the lifespan of the HD6s(early to mid 60s) they converted to a hydraulic assist for the clutches and brakes, like the 11s,16s, and 21s,oil steering clutches became standard with the E serial numbers (I think) The service manual for that series does detail the pressures and testing for that. Knowing we had a problem the one time I checked it (when it was working) the pressures were ok. But I have not been able to due a pressure check on it when it's not working to see if there is anything at all. My experience tells me it should be a suction problem since it drafts from the bottom of the transmission to the pumps above which are mounted below the fuel pump and the suction line has several rubber hose couplers.(that might leak). So my caution to Oljoe was not to spend any extra money on pumps or parts until we both can do more research. It's got to be something simple.
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Chris/CT
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Posted: 21 Apr 2011 at 6:24am |
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I have a binder full of Industrial Service Bulletins, any chance there would be anything written on your problem[s]? I could go thru it if needed
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oljoe
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Posted: 21 Apr 2011 at 11:29am |
I don’t have the dozer here yet. It’s going to be delivered Saturday.
I’m not going to buy pumps or anything too expensive yet.
My plan is to check pressures and give the dozer a good once over before coming to any conclusions.
Mel, How is the line attached to the pump? O-ring fitting?
I didn’t hear any cavitation in the pump when the brakes and clutches failed.
It should make noise if it is sucking air. Shouldn’t it?
Edited by oljoe - 21 Apr 2011 at 11:32am
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AC Mel
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Posted: 21 Apr 2011 at 8:27pm |
Oljoe, there was 2 types of hose connections. The first type was a one piece flexible hose with JIC type ends. The second one was a 4 piece steel tube 1'' with 4 different hose couplers with 4 stainless steel hose clamps each beginning with serial#19433. I'll try to upload the parts page. Chris I have some service bulletins, this one CMSB #SP-124 PAGE 9 refers to changes to prevent an aeration problem. I also found the same reference in the HD7G section begining with serial #24535. If you have anything different than those it might be helpful. The early 7Gs would be the same as the 6Es. Thanks, Mel  
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HD6 Merv
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Posted: 21 Apr 2011 at 10:52pm |
Steering clutch pressures for a HD6EP and E is 340 - 350 psii at low idle and 410 psi at hi idle. This is for a hydreco steering valve. Some used cessna valves and these were 400 psi at low idle.
Problem would seem a suction leak; but this would be aireated oil; or a worn pump.
Have also seen them shear the drive coupling, but this means no pressure anywhere including flywheel clutch.
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oljoe
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 11:20am |
Thanks for posting the scans Mel.
I thought maybe an O-ring or gasket might be leaking causing a suction problem.
We used to squirt oil around an intake gasket to see if it was leaking.
Maybe squirting a little oil around the connections would indicate a leak. If there is a leak there the oil would suck into the leak.
Merv, Does the HD6E have a hydraulic assisted flywheel clutch?
On this machine the flywheel clutch seems to work fine even after the steering clutch and brakes quit. That would mean that the problem would be oil bypassing somewhere else. Is there a pressure relief valve for the steering clutches that might be having a problem?
Just throwing out some ideas. When I get the dozer here tomorrow I’ll be able to discuss this a little more intelligently.
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HD6 Merv
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Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 5:54pm |
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The 3 pumps on a HD6E are stacked together with the last one being the flywheel clutch pump. It does not provide any boost assist; it is only a lube circulating pump. Talked to a mate about this ysterday and he said its not uncommon to see 1 or both steering pumps go out togeter; esp if suction filter was blocked; trust you,ve cleaned this; on bottom of gearbox; and changed filters in covers infront of fuel tank.
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ac_sd
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Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 7:04pm |
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I have an HD-6E, great little dozer, but they tend to have this problem..... First of all, check to be sure your fluid level is full (trans shares this fluid)....It likely has water in the fluid and this will cause the problem you are describing (is the fluid milky) they will pick up water in the transmisssion.... There is a fluid return screen on the lower left front of the trans (returns fluid to the steering/trans pressure pump which is up behind the engine fuel inj pump), this screen needs to be clean. There are two (2) filters in the compartments behind the battery boxes, one on each side.... So, my recommendationis: Drain and flush trans fluid, Clean the metal return screen, Replace the (2) filters....Keep the tractor covered under a roof or tarp to lessen the chance of moisture getting in the system.... This has been a problem on several of these machines I've been around... I have no ideas on definitively preventing the water problem, maybe someone has an idea????? Good luck!!!!
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ac_sd
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Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 7:12pm |
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I just read some of the other comments and it all sounds familiar.... Ac made the HD-6A/B with dry steering clutches... The HD-6E (manual transmission), and HD-6EP (powershift) had the wet deck (boosted steering and brakes, similar to the HD-7G)... The HD-6EP will not move when this problem arises... The HD-6EP I used to own worked better when I ran it over-filled in the transmission.... Try that.....
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oljoe
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Posted: 24 Apr 2011 at 10:14am |
I got the dozer yesterday. The driver that delivered it said they couldn’t get it to turn at all when they tried to load. They had to turn it by pulling the front end around with a tractor. When I got it here I backed it off of the trailer and tried to turn but it wouldn’t turn at all. The brakes would not work either so it was quite a ride off of the tilt trailer. The first thing I had to do was find the transmission. When I pulled the seat the area under the seat was FULL of sticks and dirt, about half of it was Locust thorns. I bet the guy that ran it looked like he got attacked by half a dozen cats!!! I let that go for a while and remove the filter housings behind the battery boxes. When I pulled them they were about half full. The oil had a little moisture but not much. No metal shavings at all. I pulled the filters out and replaced the housings without filters and gave it a try. Still no steering or brakes. I decided to go back to check the screen. When I got everything cleaned out I could tell that the screen hadn’t been checked for a while. There were several different layers of dirt, mud and sticks that I had to remove before I could even see the bolts that I needed to remove. The suction line is the type with several rubber hoses and clamps connecting the pumps to the transmission. I checked the clamps that were easy to get to and they were all tight. I had to quit for the day and it will be later on in the week before I can get back to do more checking.
ac_sd, When I checked the fluid level in the transmission it was a little low but not in the add range. I will buy some new filters, change the fluid and clean the screen this week.
You said running the transmission over filled worked better on the HD6EP. How much overfilled? Will standard generic hy-tran oil work for this machine or does it require special oil?
Thanks for the input,
Joe
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ac_sd
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Posted: 24 Apr 2011 at 11:21am |
I got to be friends with an AC Service Rep over my HD-6EP, a great guy who spent a lot of time on my tractor, He is the one who got me to run it over-filled. I had the coupling on the steering pump break after that, but by then the dealership was gone, the "EP" had gages for trans and steering pressure and mine showed zero which is how I tracked that problem down. The steering pump uses a similar coupling to the one used on a Detroit Diesel fuel pump....(Info-just in case).... I have three HD-6E's now and like the crawlers a lot, but this steering problem is a recurring problem for me....(One of mine will be a parts tractor for the other two).... I would really flush your tractor's system until You feel comfortable that it is clean.... You may have to check that screen a couple times as you start running it..... I ordered those two filters through my local NAPA store...... Sound like you are on the right track... Some of those other folks had some good info also......
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ac_sd
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Posted: 24 Apr 2011 at 11:28am |
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Sorry, I re-read your message, The AC Rep had me run an Allison trans fluid in my Hd-6EP, it gave no firther problems after I started running it over-filled other than the coupling break.. I actually found a small piece of what looked like from a lining or clutch-pack (carbon-like) in the gears of the pump which is likely what sheared the coupling..... I have been running Dexron in the trans of my HD-6E's, too heavy of an oil will also cause steering problems......
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oljoe
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Posted: 24 Apr 2011 at 11:59am |
ac_sd, Thank you very much for the information.
We have a NAPA store nearby. I’ll check for filters the first of the week. There was no metal in the filters but I haven’t got to the screen yet. I know that Case-International recommended running their brand of Hy-Tran but I have used generic brands with good results. I think I’ll try the Dexron.
I’ll keep everyone informed.
Joe
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HD6 Merv
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Posted: 24 Apr 2011 at 5:50pm |
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Yes Dexron is the recommended oil
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ac_sd
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Posted: 24 Apr 2011 at 6:36pm |
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I just checked an extra filter I keep, it's Napa # 1827......
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ac_sd
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Posted: 24 Apr 2011 at 6:38pm |
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One other thing, the HD-6E has an oil master clutch, but it is seperate from the trans/steering system..... (looking at some other comments).......
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oljoe
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Posted: 25 Apr 2011 at 11:04am |
ac_sd, Thanks for the part number. That will make finding them a lot easier I’ll pick the filters up or order them today.
Merv, Thanks for the reply.
Does anyone know how much oil the transmission holds?
I’m going to get a manual but haven’t yet.
Thanks,
Joe
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ac_sd
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Posted: 25 Apr 2011 at 11:31am |
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I've got a manual, I'll check on the fluid capacity this AM........
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ac_sd
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Posted: 25 Apr 2011 at 1:58pm |
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Trans/steering compartment capacity is 15 gallons...... There are two plugs underneath the steering clutch compartment which will help drain this fluid....
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HD6 Merv
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Posted: 26 Apr 2011 at 1:11am |
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Yep 15 gal for trans and steering clutch. 2,5 gallons for engine clutch; same oil as for trans/ s. clutch
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oljoe
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Posted: 26 Apr 2011 at 9:19am |
Thanks for the information.
I wasn’t able to get to NAPA yesterday but I will go today.
I looked up the price of Dexron online and the prices seem a little high.
I don’t remember paying $5 or $6 a quart for it. I guess it’s been a while since I bought some.
The 5 gal pail was about $55 that’s $2.75 per quart. I guess I’ll try the local farm & Home to check their prices.
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oljoe
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Posted: 26 Apr 2011 at 1:52pm |
I went by NAPA today to get the filters. They told me that #1827 filter was no longer a available. The 2 filters they had in the book were #1828 and #1415. I’ll have to do a little more checking to get the proper filter.
I bought the Dexron at the local farm & home supply in 2.5 gallon size for $25.75. That is a little better then the online prices that I found.
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