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HD-6B /AG Engine swap options |
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kblackav8or
Bronze Level Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Location: Woodland WA Points: 80 |
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Posted: 04 Feb 2021 at 8:57pm |
Well I haven't pulled pan yet on the 7000 engine but I want to examine options of trying to find scarce parts to rebulid/repair vs a swap to something else. A 3/71 seems like a decent option. What about other 4 cyl 4 stroke diesels out of other equipment? Which SAE bellhousing do these machines have?
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Lazyts
Orange Level Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Location: Manitoba Points: 627 |
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 31151 |
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Had looked up trying to find parts for my aged 7G to overhaul, rings pistons and such were good to go, bearings were slim pickings and anything beyond valves or nozzles in the head slimmer. Used are some still about but could not guarantee any better than what had.
Only real option was a 4BT Case/Cummins swap and that was well out of any budget I could come up with. Also depended on Torque Converter or Clutch drive, converting a ring of sorts to drive the toothed drive coupler on a converter was gonna be difficult. 3/71 will give more RPM but HP to keep it moving will be lacking.
Edited by DMiller - 06 Feb 2021 at 12:22pm |
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Lazyts
Orange Level Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Location: Manitoba Points: 627 |
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I'm planning a "poor man's rebuild" on an 11000 engine, in-frame:
-Head gasket kit -New piston rings -pull liners, hone with 4.5" flex hone, reinstall with new o-rings -new rod bearings -oil pan gasket I've done variations of these rebuilds before, I only had problems re-using one piston, and should have known better as that engine had been run with the timing off- cracked some of the pistons. I would honestly like to do main bearings too, but haven't found any yet. All of the above parts are readliy available at present except the piston rings- had to scrounge on ebay for them.
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HD6GTOM
Orange Level Joined: 30 Nov 2009 Location: MADISON CO IA Points: 6627 |
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I bought a used engine for my last hd6g. It came out of a crawler tractor. The whole bottom end was heavier than the OE motor I pulled out of the 6g. Higher HP too. My last 6g was a mid 1960's tractor. Easy to change the motor. If you switch engines, make sure the one you get has the oil main clutch.
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kblackav8or
Bronze Level Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Location: Woodland WA Points: 80 |
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Mine is an HD-6B that already had an engine swap to a HD-6AG engine. I believe it has a dry clutch. I am thinking maybe a 3/71 detroit. They are about 300ft/lbs of torque at 1400 rpm which would probably be all I need. My understanding is a variation of the 7000 engine was used in Army generators in the 70s and maybe into the 80s. It looks just like the engine in mine.
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Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41614 |
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go one step further and go 4-71 -more of them around if going Detroit
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
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Eric B
Orange Level Joined: 09 Feb 2012 Location: British Columbi Points: 953 |
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I agree with Coke on the 4-71 option providing there is sufficient room, I'm not too familiar with the dimensions under the hood. Don't forget, however, if you go with a 3-71 you can comfortably run 70's injectors giving you more HP. You would be easily over 100 HP if you do. Using an ideal timing pin will wake it up too. I have played around with injector size and timing on 6V53, 6-71 and 8V92's and the Detroits are great to work with... as the old saying goes about them "you either love'm or hate'm" LOL.
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Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 31151 |
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Only issue with the two strokers is same as the Allis Buda engines
Parts are thinning back. DD no longer carries much except some aftermarket available pieces Western diesel in STL became Clark Diesel svc and no longer carries parts to reman the old style injector assemblies, they rely on Detroit Diesel to supply exch program electronics parts Know this first hand trying to assist an old friend locate parts to rebuild his six 71. |
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kblackav8or
Bronze Level Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Location: Woodland WA Points: 80 |
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Several places seem to have 2 stroke detroit parts. AC parts.. not so much. I just wonder if a 4//71 will fit.
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Eric B
Orange Level Joined: 09 Feb 2012 Location: British Columbi Points: 953 |
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You'll have to do some very careful measuring if you find a 4-71 to look at. I don't imagine the rad can move forward any further on your HD6? Usually where there is a will there is a way. I don't think you will have any trouble finding Detroit parts because they were made by the hundreds of thousands and the benefit being the same series covers so many applications. It's a matter of door-knocking, lots of those parts are still on shelves. I've seen 6-71 inlines put in Bantam excavators that had 4-71's new, surprisingly with very little modification and that's adding 2 cylinders.
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Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8247 |
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Always wished the townships old AD40 I plowed snow with in the late 70's had a 6-71...maybe even a "T". Hit the drift with the V plow in 6th and drag down and slip in 4th for a little more then back up 1/8 mile and get another run at it!
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Mactractor
Orange Level Access Joined: 20 Jun 2011 Location: New Zealand Points: 652 |
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Gotta hand it to the 71 series Jimmie. What other line of engines stayed in both production and service as long as they have?
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kblackav8or
Bronze Level Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Location: Woodland WA Points: 80 |
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I have a friend with a 4/71 that needs rebuilt. Not sure what era but he has an AC bellhousing with it and most of everything it needs to run. I missing an exhaust manifold and maybe a couple other small things. I am away from home. I can't find dimensions on the 6000 or 7000 engine (length/width/height etc) Can someone throw a tape measure on theirs and post the dimensions (rough is good enough) 4/71 dimensions are not hard to find, I found those. Next question - a 4/71 makes around the same torque as the turbo engine I have so I suspect I probably won't break things if I take it easy. It already just spins the tracks without really trying. A 3/71 probably would be ideal. Torque is a bit less then my engine but has good horsepower and we know it will fit if I have the right pieces to connect everything up.
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Wes (VA)
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Elkton, VA Points: 510 |
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Theres an outfit in PA by the name of LEID diesel. Supposed to be good with them 2 strokers, parts and complete.
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kblackav8or
Bronze Level Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Location: Woodland WA Points: 80 |
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What about a 4BTA Cummins? Key will be finding a correct bellhousing for the SAE 2 clutch setup. What about a Deere engine? I haven't had a chance to work on it but I am going to do some measuring while I am home and move it somewhere where it will be possible to work on it. Still runs great but with water getting into the oil I am just moving it carefully around so I don't do further damage. It could be just a head gasket. It wasn't doing this until I changed the oil.
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CAL(KS)
Orange Level Joined: 18 Sep 2009 Location: Chapman, KS Points: 3786 |
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could be an injector cup. if i recall this is a 7000 turbo engine?
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Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20
Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
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kblackav8or
Bronze Level Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Location: Woodland WA Points: 80 |
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That's correct. A 7000 engine. It does seem to smoke a fair bit. |
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CAL(KS)
Orange Level Joined: 18 Sep 2009 Location: Chapman, KS Points: 3786 |
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that could leak coolant into crankcase, doesnt have to be into cylinder
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Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20
Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
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Eric B
Orange Level Joined: 09 Feb 2012 Location: British Columbi Points: 953 |
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On the original HD6B where is the hydraulic pump mounted? One benefit with Detroit engines is having several options for accessory drives, some other makes don't seem to have more than the front pulley to drive the pump.
You could probably use a Case 336 cu. in. as the HP and physical size should be a close match. I have had several of those. The version of the 336 for bulldozers and loaders have the bigger crank journals. On these the pump drive is only off the front pulley.
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Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
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kblackav8or
Bronze Level Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Location: Woodland WA Points: 80 |
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Regardless of outcome, I would be interested in learning more about these Case engines.
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Eric B
Orange Level Joined: 09 Feb 2012 Location: British Columbi Points: 953 |
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The greater reason I ran this thought on the 336 Case is that there should still be quite a few around compared to the A-C engines. I've had three 680 Case backhoes (still have one) with this engine plus one stationary set up. One I had to rebuild but the rebuild kit was reasonable. The root cause for that failure was neglect in previous ownership, cracked liner with A/F in the pan. Some have had this 336 fail due to diesel fuel dilution into the pan. Older used units that slightly increase the oil on the dipstick while using a bit of oil at the same time eventually end up with enough diesel in the bottom that the bearings fail. This can happen to any diesel and the problem is easy to address if caught in good time. Overall the 336's have been good performers for me. The engines in the backhoes have the smaller bearing journals but farm tractors, I believe, as well as for sure bulldozers and loaders have the bigger journals for heavier work loads.
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Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
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kblackav8or
Bronze Level Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Location: Woodland WA Points: 80 |
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Tried to figure out my engine serial number and the plate is missing off the block it appears. Some of you more experienced guys may be better able to tell what I have from some other photos I just took before leaving the US for work overseas. So far as I know it got repowered with a 7000 engine at some point as previously mentioned. |
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DiyDave
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Gambrills, MD Points: 51743 |
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Tractor # 18906 would be a 1965... Per Swinford's book.
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Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!
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kblackav8or
Bronze Level Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Location: Woodland WA Points: 80 |
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Cheapest copy of that book I can find is $136. Yikes.
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