HD4 Steering clutch and final drive questions

Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic

   Hey there, I'm Josh,This is my first post, but I have been watching these forums for a year now and I appreciate the rich source of knowledge. Thanks in advance for any possible information.

I have a 1968 HD4 Crawler Loader that I am restoring. The machine sat (outside in tarp - in Canada),  for 6ish years before coming into my possession. 

First I had to rebuild the Roosa master pump because the plungers and metering valve were seized. Then I had to replace most of the electrics and all the filters. I also changed all the oils and fluids. The help of this site and YT were paramount in my success so far. 

I am now working on the undercarriage and drive portion of the machine. I've removed the ripper and winch for easier access to the rear and the machine is now up on blocks. 

Question: Could a seized clutch be responsible for the a track not turning or does the lack of rotation definitively indicate a failed final drive? If so, what part is likely to have failed?

Information on the Problem: simply put, the right track doesn't turn. The left track turns forward and back, the clutch lever idles the track and the brake stops it. The crawler will track forwards and back on one track. The right brake also works, so I can turn to the right when in reverse.  The steering clutch lever on the right is very stiff. It barely moves (once at the end of free travel - currently 8 in. from dashboard - left is same free travel). When inspecting the clutches through the top covers, one can see the left side [splined shaft] clearly moves back and forth when pulling the lever. However on the right side the movement is less than 1/2 in. The right side track is also very loose. 

The previous owner, who has since passed, said that the ability to turn got worse and worse till one day it didn't work at all. At that point he was 92 so it was parked. 
Any info would be much appreciated before I go about tearing it down. 

	This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity.
	The Forum	Parts and Services	Unofficial Allis Store	Tractor Shows	Serial Numbers	History

Author	Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic
wing and a track Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 11 May 2020 Location: Muskoka, ON Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote wing and a track Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: HD4 Steering clutch and final drive questions Posted: 20 May 2020 at 10:53am
	Hey there, I'm Josh, This is my first post, but I have been watching these forums for a year now and I appreciate the rich source of knowledge. Thanks in advance for any possible information. I have a 1968 HD4 Crawler Loader that I am restoring. The machine sat (outside in tarp - in Canada), for 6ish years before coming into my possession. First I had to rebuild the Roosa master pump because the plungers and metering valve were seized. Then I had to replace most of the electrics and all the filters. I also changed all the oils and fluids. The help of this site and YT were paramount in my success so far. I am now working on the undercarriage and drive portion of the machine. I've removed the ripper and winch for easier access to the rear and the machine is now up on blocks. Question: Could a seized clutch be responsible for the a track not turning or does the lack of rotation definitively indicate a failed final drive? If so, what part is likely to have failed? Information on the Problem: simply put, the right track doesn't turn. The left track turns forward and back, the clutch lever idles the track and the brake stops it. The crawler will track forwards and back on one track. The right brake also works, so I can turn to the right when in reverse. The steering clutch lever on the right is very stiff. It barely moves (once at the end of free travel - currently 8 in. from dashboard - left is same free travel). When inspecting the clutches through the top covers, one can see the left side [splined shaft] clearly moves back and forth when pulling the lever. However on the right side the movement is less than 1/2 in. The right side track is also very loose. The previous owner, who has since passed, said that the ability to turn got worse and worse till one day it didn't work at all. At that point he was 92 so it was parked. Any info would be much appreciated before I go about tearing it down.

Sponsored Links

CAL(KS) Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 18 Sep 2009 Location: Chapman, KS Points: 3786	Post Options Post Reply Quote CAL(KS) Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 May 2020 at 11:26am
	in my experience, not being able to turn and the fact that the clutch lever hardly travels tells me the clutch has stuck somehow. Not uncommon. Can you verifiy shaft motion on the outboard side of the clutch? I Think the clutch pack has come apart inside and that is why the lever wont travel but the brake still stops the track on the RH side. So the drive disks are stripped on the bevel shaft and lodged causing no lever travel but the drum and brake still connected to final. Put in drive and hold left clutch lever in and see where shaft motion stops. sounds like you will be pulling the steer clutch out.
	Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15

pinball Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 28 May 2014 Location: missouriu Points: 6102	Post Options Post Reply Quote pinball Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 May 2020 at 11:28pm
	I have an allis Chalmers h4/hd4 original service manual if you need it. $45 mailed to you. if it wont turn then possible clutch stuck. bearing siezed up. if you have the cover off and try to engage it and you see the inner shaft moving at all then your problem most likely is in the housing outward. I suppose you have checked the oil level in your outer case. if its full of oil then most likely the problem exists in the clutch department. I rebuilt my right side for I think 300. not expensive. just time consuming. good luck

wing and a track Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 11 May 2020 Location: Muskoka, ON Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote wing and a track Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 May 2020 at 1:12pm
	I have come to the conclusion that it is a clutch problem. I removed the Tanks assembly and now have proper access to the clutch compartments. The flange attached to the drum spins the track, so I know its not a final drive. However the spline covered shaft doesn't spin on the right side when the drum spins. So my guess is that the shaft is stripped. Will this cause any problems with removal? Also, how do I access the shaft? Must I remove the fork first? any idea how? Thanks for any sugestions!

wing and a track Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 11 May 2020 Location: Muskoka, ON Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote wing and a track Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 May 2020 at 1:19pm
	For Background, I have a manual for the HD4 and 655. I have read every post I can find on this website on the topic of steering clutch removal. What I'm hung up on is how to gain access to the shaft with the split-pin-ring-thing. When looking down, i can see barely an inch of the shaft and I can't even touch it. the space is so small. How do I create more space to access the shaft to remove the pin and then slide it towards the transmission? I'll post some photos later. Thanks in advance!

pinball Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 28 May 2014 Location: missouriu Points: 6102	Post Options Post Reply Quote pinball Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 May 2020 at 6:51am
	there is a small band around that shaft with a small pin on the end of it. you will need to make a hook to put under the clip to pull up to disconnect the pin from the shaft. you cant remove it just lift up the end with the pin. you should be able to barely just see the clip. that pin goes into an indention on the shaft. there are 3 indentions. I think mine was in the 2nd indention. good luck

wing and a track Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 11 May 2020 Location: Muskoka, ON Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote wing and a track Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 May 2020 at 7:04am
	Thank you! I'm starting in on it this morning. I have the machine up on blocks with the tanks off. Is it possible to remove the fork/yoke? or at least disconnect it so it slides towards the transmission? I am concerned about the limited access.

wing and a track Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 11 May 2020 Location: Muskoka, ON Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote wing and a track Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 May 2020 at 10:19am
	Here are a few photos of my project. Any help with how to make space to find the pin on the Spline shaft would be appreciated.

wing and a track Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 11 May 2020 Location: Muskoka, ON Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote wing and a track Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 May 2020 at 10:23am
	Sorry still getting the hang of this.

pinball Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 28 May 2014 Location: missouriu Points: 6102	Post Options Post Reply Quote pinball Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 May 2020 at 8:09pm
	don't think you can remove the yoke till you get the clutch out. pull the brake band straight out and the clutch will come with it once you get the shaft back. you only will have just a little clearance so it has to come straight up. probably should replace the throw out bearing and the seal on the shaft that comes through the tranny housing. if your clutch plate is not pitted then use emery cloth to clean it. I think Idaho gear sells the clutches and brake bands. take your time. get it good and clean. I sand blasted my parts I took out the premièred them with grey primer to stop any rust. its a difficult job for one guy so do it right the first time so maybe it will never need it one again.

albatros_3 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Silver Level Joined: 16 Apr 2012 Location: SE Michigan Points: 450	Post Options Post Reply Quote albatros_3 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 May 2020 at 1:29pm
	My left side of my 653 wouldn't move. Clutch was shot. I ended up pulling both and having them rebuilt by Rick. It's was a pain to pull the clutches on my 653 because everything was froze up from sitting. To make it easier to get to the "band clip with a pin" out, I took out the stilt pin. I think that's what the service manual calls it. This allowed me to pull the throw out bearing as far from the clutch as possible. Based on advice from here, I bought a long, thin, cheap flat screw driver. Bent the end so I had a 1" 90 degree bent to work under the clip and pull it out. After that, disconnect the brake linkage, slide the axle in, take out 6 bolts and the clutch can be pulled out. Edited by albatros_3 - 28 May 2020 at 1:31pm

Randaleky Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Silver Level Joined: 17 Aug 2011 Location: belfry, ky. Points: 427	Post Options Post Reply Quote Randaleky Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 May 2020 at 11:01pm
	sometimes the clip pin is locked into the indention on the splined shaft that is closest to the ring gear area. that only lets the main end of the splined shaft connecting and driving the shaft . I say take the fork keeper and verticle pin out and move it toward the front of the housing as far as possible. that will give you better room to lift the clip at the clutch hub . use your finger to feel for the clip end and you will feel a raised pin on the flat/smooth part of the ring. once you lift it up it should be out of the way to allow a long screw driver or rod to slide the axle out of the clutch. try to determine which of the three indentions the pin was in,, very important. once the six 3/8 bolts are removed from the back side of the clutch you will be able to lift the clutches out using the brake band.

Lazy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 04 Jan 2021 Location: Illinois Points: 11	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lazy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Jan 2021 at 1:37pm
	Hello I don’t have any useful help or info but do have some questions. Let me also say great pictures. I just got a 1969 hd4 crawler loader and the right side also stopped moving,exactly as you described. Wondering if you were able to remove the tanks seat/battery tray as an assembly or did you just place them neatly on the ground like that. Would like to know if you have had any luck getting clutch’s out or if you found the root cause of the problem. Really interested in your progress would love any more pictures you have. There isn’t that much visual info for these hd4s I don’t have instant access to the machine so just trying to suck up as much information as I can so when I spend time with machine I can make as much progress as possible.