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HD11G help

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RonnieJones View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 Nov 2018 at 9:04am
Hello everyone.
I am wondering if you guys could help me out with this HD11G / 1502? So far this is the only numbers I can find on a plate that's riveted to the gauge panel on the left side.

This is what I know about it. In 92 it went through a really big fire and has been sitting ever since. From what I can tell the plastic covers on the gauge face seem to be melted but ALL of the rubber lines/belts are in tact. So I don't think any of it was fire damaged expect the gauge faces and the name plates are a bit melted. It does have log forks and a Carco winch attached. There is a bucket nearby which I was told was for the crawler.

This crawler came with the property we bought 2 years ago. I have been working a trail since we have been here to re-access the back of the property with a vehicle. So I am hoping this spring I can start working on this and see if it still runs. 
Problems 
I have never owned or have driven a crawler
I need to move it safely from it's current location
I know very little about heavy equipment.
I am a auto mechanic but have little to no experience with this type of vehicle. When the rain breaks I plan on doing a video of the crawler so I can get as much information as possible. I refuse to buy books until I know for sure what I have and am dealing with.
Resources seem to be very limited on this crawler.
So any information, sites and books you guys could point me to would be a great deal of help and very much appreciated.
Thanks,
RonnieJones
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jerbob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jerbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2018 at 11:50am
Welcome to the forum Ronnie. That would be fun rescuing a classic tractor like that.

Good luck. You couldn’t be in better hands the the folks on this forum.
HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2018 at 11:51am
On the right rear final drive housing below the fuel tank will be the stamped s/n. Will start off HD 11-.


As to the fire what is burnt on the machine? Will need to pull floor pans to access the battery cable retainers, it IS a 24V Positive Ground system if the generator is still functional, been swapped to a alternator Could be a Negative ground. Will require serious batteries to get it to start. A photo of the machine will help as to nuances. To move will need to raise the blade arms, then verify out of gear, should have a parking brake lock for the right hand side brake(locks both rails as no differential just a spool). Technically this is a Loader not a Dozer.


check fluids, oil, coolant if oil shows on trans or final and hydraulic. If has set LONG Time there is a access plate on the belly pan for engine oil drain, break that plug loose if has oil in it and bring close to out allow any water to drizzle out. Then the biggie, see if the engine will roll over by hand at all. These are starters, not ready to spin it back to life yet

Edited by DMiller - 28 Nov 2018 at 11:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2018 at 12:02pm
There are quite a few Forum members in CA, most Prolific is ACMel, he has a Allis Museum up at Redwood Valley, operates Redwood Valley Gravel Products and may be a closest assist for you if in N CA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2018 at 1:04pm
You are at a place to get information and help if you decide to get in all the way. This forum likes to be a cheerleader to anyone wanting to save old iron. But time as much as anything has not been on your side.Just a little bit of moisture and 25 years can stick a lot of stuff with rust.


Anything can be fixed but at what amount of hours let alone the parts. My guess is Mel is in your part of the state at least. And has more direct experience than most so would be able to give better advice than most of us. 

Pictures in any form will help identify what you have. I cannot think you can put a battery in and spin it. If it was like that it would not have been left behind. But stranger things have happened.

I would guess the hydraulics are front mounted and powered by the crank shaft. If you could get a bar or wrench in the drive and get some movement of the crank shaft that would be a big plus. If the engine is free fixing in place is a much greater possibility. 


Edited by Ray54 - 28 Nov 2018 at 1:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2018 at 1:10pm
If anything Mel may collect it up to at least try to preserve parts from it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonnieJones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2018 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by jerbob jerbob wrote:

Welcome to the forum Ronnie. That would be fun rescuing a classic tractor like that. 

Good luck. You couldn’t be in better hands the the folks on this forum.
--
Thanks I really appreciate it. I have been lurking for a while and have been trying to find other sources of information on this but this place seems to be the best for any information I need. Plus it seems to be the only place lol.
--

Originally posted by DMiller DMiller wrote:

On the right rear final drive housing below the fuel tank will be the stamped s/n. Will start off HD 11-.

As to the fire what is burnt on the machine? Will need to pull floor pans to access the battery cable retainers, it IS a 24V Positive Ground system if the generator is still functional, been swapped to a alternator Could be a Negative ground. Will require serious batteries to get it to start. A photo of the machine will help as to nuances. To move will need to raise the blade arms, then verify out of gear, should have a parking brake lock for the right hand side brake(locks both rails as no differential just a spool). Technically this is a Loader not a Dozer.


check fluids, oil, coolant if oil shows on trans or final and hydraulic. If has set LONG Time there is a access plate on the belly pan for engine oil drain, break that plug loose if has oil in it and bring close to out allow any water to drizzle out. Then the biggie, see if the engine will roll over by hand at all. These are starters, not ready to spin it back to life yet
I have to move this beast first to really access anything. It's been sitting so long that you can't see the bottom rollers. I had to clear away some brush just to get in it.
The fire appears to me to have only damaged the electrical, seat, batteries are gone/missing, some paint torched off in the cab and the knobs for the levers.Best I can tell right now are all the hydraulics, radiator hoses, fuel lines and belts are not even melted. The cables for the winch look intact. There is also still fuel in the tank.

I did pull the generator out that I was gonna use for something else but the Armature is cracked and bearings toasted. I bet it made all kind of noise when it was running. I will likely convert it to an alternator once I know it's going to run.

Also I went out during a break in rain. I don't see any numbers at the moment back there. But I did take some photo's. My camera lens is a bit to long but hopefully it will shed some light on what I have. I'll post them in a bit.



Originally posted by Ray54 Ray54 wrote:

You are at a place to get information and help if you decide to get in all the way. This forum likes to be a cheerleader to anyone wanting to save old iron. But time as much as anything has not been on your side.Just a little bit of moisture and 25 years can stick a lot of stuff with rust.


Anything can be fixed but at what amount of hours let alone the parts. My guess is Mel is in your part of the state at least. And has more direct experience than most so would be able to give better advice than most of us. 

Pictures in any form will help identify what you have. I cannot think you can put a battery in and spin it. If it was like that it would not have been left behind. But stranger things have happened.

I would guess the hydraulics are front mounted and powered by the crank shaft. If you could get a bar or wrench in the drive and get some movement of the crank shaft that would be a big plus. If the engine is free fixing in place is a much greater possibility. 

Well the good Lord put us here two years ago and I don't believe he gave me a dead tractor. Although the case skidder is going to be a lost cause. Anyway me and my wife both believe it will run again and I am not afraid to work on anything. It will be slow and a whole bunch of learning as my diesel and hydraulic experience is limited 

A friend of mine use to fill old flat heads full of transmission fluid in the cylinders to free them up. Most of the time it freed them right up. Some ran great after the fluid burned out. I will make sure though everything is free before trying to start anything. 

From what I have found on this loader it would be perfect for what I need. It's on 43 very over grown acres, so it is definitely worth going all the way if I can, well working any way. Not sure about full restoration.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2018 at 6:09pm
Get some better pictures of the undercarriage, like the individual links, in the track chain, and the individual teeth on the rear sprockets.  UC is the most expensive component, in a crawler, and often the limiting factor.  With better pictures, those here can tell you what the wear there looks like. Before spending a nickel, on anything, I would also check to see that there's not a cracked block, and check all fluids.  If something is empty, look around even more for the cause...Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lazyts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2018 at 7:11pm
Cool find!  LH track is on backwards... surprising how many crawlers have the tracks on backwards if you look!

Edited by Lazyts - 28 Nov 2018 at 7:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonnieJones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2018 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by DiyDave DiyDave wrote:

Get some better pictures of the undercarriage, like the individual links, in the track chain, and the individual teeth on the rear sprockets.  UC is the most expensive component, in a crawler, and often the limiting factor.  With better pictures, those here can tell you what the wear there looks like. Before spending a nickel, on anything, I would also check to see that there's not a cracked block, and check all fluids.  If something is empty, look around even more for the cause...Wink
  
Depending on what the rain is doing tomorrow I'll try and get some close pics of the tracks. At least the parts I can see, if not it won't be until friday. The right rear sprocket has been welded on all the spokes. I am sure many things will need to be replaced. 

Every thing I have found on this property has been well used and needs some tlc. Mostly if it runs and can move on it's own I would be super happy.

If I can find out what year it is would be a huge help for me to start sourcing parts for worst case scenario
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Originally posted by Lazyts Lazyts wrote:

Cool find!  LH track is on backwards... surprising how many crawlers have the tracks on backwards if you look!

I would have never noticed lol doesn't surprise me at all though. The original owners seem to have done alot of odd ball things. Had great ideas but mostly just poorly executed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC Mel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2018 at 10:30pm
Ronnie, Looks like a good project...serial number indicates a 1957 year model. Every one that has chimed in so far has good advice. One thing we would want to caution you about...when you get closer..is being careful when you try to turn it over. Can't tell by the pictures..but I'm sure it would still have the original style Lanova engine. The fuel pump could seize up just like an engine...and of course by forcing the engine to turn over..not knowing if the fuel pump is stuck or not..you can do enough damage to the fuel pump to render the whole project almost useless. You're not there yet..we'll walk you through it.
 You won't be able to get to the front to turn it over because of the hydraulics . You can take the floor plates off and get to the driveshaft..between the clutch and transmission and use a bar in the ujoints or pipe wrench on the drive shaft...assuming you can engage the clutch and get the transmission into neutral...also maybe you have a torque converter...can't tell by the pictures either...I'm betting you don't.
Your brain should be going into overload now....and there's plenty of more good info here to glean..so keep posting pictures 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonnieJones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2018 at 8:28am
Thanks AC Mel thats a really big help. The engine is the 6 cylinder naturally aspired. From what I have gathered it was what they called the buda engine? Not sure if thats the same thing you are talking about. I'll keep researching it.

Is there a good source for operator manuals and service manuals? or is this just something I need to just wing it and see first hand how it works. Is the straight HD11 manuals good enough for the drive train stuff or does it have to be specific to the G series?

I didn't think about the fuel pump being locked up. Maybe I should remove it before attempting to turn it over by hand. If it is in neutral which I think it is, is there anything else that would be damaged by turning the engine over? (by hand or starter) Like the Hydraulics or does that stuff run off the output side of the transmission? 

I don't remember seeing anything up front except the grill and radiator stuff, so when you mention hydraulics up front are you talking about the arms and cylinders for the bucket or is there more to it that I can't see yet?

What about removing the glow plugs to relieve the compression? Just guessing by the dozen or so cans of empty ether I am going to assume all the glow plugs are bad.

Any suggestions on how to get the wood rats out it lol Critter wise I am hoping no rattle snakes or skunks have called this home. I know my dog is real interested in something under it. I would be ok if chipmunks are living in it :)




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2018 at 8:35am
No glow plugs on these Ronnie, and the hydraulic pump is splined to the front of the crankshaft buried under all that steel. Mel is correct, will have a PSB style Injection pump which should it be locked will fail in turning the engine over. No real way to get into it to validate.

Lanova is a Buda Series engine.


Edited by DMiller - 29 Nov 2018 at 8:37am
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The engine is BUDA 10000 desangaged the transmission and put the hydrolic lever in neutral fonction and removed the startor and try turning the flywel with a big screw driver
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonnieJones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2018 at 1:39pm
Learning many things from you all thank you so much :) for the help.
Finally found a operators manual specific to this model and they also have a service manual for a HD11. What I am concerned about is there a difference in service manuals (B,G..ect)? 
Are all HD11's mostly the same as far as the drive train goes? 
I am thinking all of them are the same and the letter just designates it's attachments/options.
So for example the HD11 service manual I am looking at says "This manual covers SN#101-13366" I do realize there is some variations in the year/sn. 
I can get both for 100 bucks before shipping. The op manual is about 30. So way cheaper than the 200 I have seen other places.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC Mel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2018 at 2:38pm
Ronnie I can help you with the manuals. When the wifi comes back on. Never done this on the phone .....maybe this won't even work. Wait on the manuals if you can
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If it has the Lanova combustion system the injectors are looking at you on the left hand side of the engine.

If you don't know what an American Bosch PSB fuel pump looks like there ought to be an ID tag on the pump.  These will also be on engine series later than the Lanova ones.

The reason for being careful is that if the head is stuck and you try turning the engine it isn't good for the pump internals and parts are largely made of that stuff "unobtanium"

While working on the engine of our AC 45 grader I had a borrow of a pretty comprehensive HD 11 manual that covered multiple models.  I don't have the manual now, or any reference number.




Edited by Ian Beale - 29 Nov 2018 at 3:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonnieJones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2018 at 3:41pm
AC Mel I can wait on the manuals. I am in no hurry honestly. 
The WIFI thing I completely get. I am on satellite. Surprised this storm hasn't blocked my signal. Saturday it might happen though, we are supposed to get snow :( BTW what part of the state you in? I am 40 miles east of Redding in Montgomery Creek. If you don't mind me asking.


Ian Beale I did look up PSB pump they remind me of the early style VW fuel injection system. The Germans had a fuel distributor that was so well machined it didn't need seals or gaskets. It worked the same as a ignition distributor except fuel of course.
I don't know yet if this PSB fuel pump works kinda the same way. The few minutes I looked at them they don't look all that complicated but I have never taken one apart yet :)
I am curious if this sprays all the cylinders at once or individually. 

I am trying to not get to technical because I am the type that wants to know how and why it works. If I know how and why then it's easy to fix, kinda
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ian Beale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2018 at 9:10pm
Injection is timed by the rotor in the head.  A bit hard to do an early Corvette continuous spray in a diesel.

Any diesel injection I've met is all fine tolerance no seals.  My father told of a WW2 diesel fixer showing how just the body heat from holding a plunger in the hand expanded it enough to prevent entry to its cylinder.

If you're going to take the head off there is a stud in the side of it that has to come out.  More importantly there is a square section o-ring on the end of that stud that has to come out GENTLY as it is also made of unobtanium.

For more on PSB pump try



Edited by Ian Beale - 29 Nov 2018 at 9:13pm
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great link Ian
HD3
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Thanks Ian that is awesome. Big smile
I will finish reading in the morning but on page 19 has me a bit concerned. It says it's attached to the engine oil system. I am thinking after 25+ years of sitting, if it's really sat that long undisturbed it is probably dry. If it is dry, what do you think the chances are of it being rusted/stuck? Pretty high I would guess. What I have been told it's been sitting since 92. 
I don't plan on removing the head but I also don't want to destroy something that can be fixed if it is stuck.

If head removal is the only way to get this off is it possible to just remove the oil line and squirt something in it to be sure.

On the fuel side does diesel gum up like gasoline?  I won't know if there is old fuel in the line still but there is fuel in the tank. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian Beale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2018 at 3:34am
Originally posted by RonnieJones RonnieJones wrote:

Thanks Ian that is awesome. Big smile
I will finish reading in the morning but on page 19 has me a bit concerned. It says it's attached to the engine oil system. I am thinking after 25+ years of sitting, if it's really sat that long undisturbed it is probably dry. If it is dry, what do you think the chances are of it being rusted/stuck? Pretty high I would guess. What I have been told it's been sitting since 92. 
I don't plan on removing the head but I also don't want to destroy something that can be fixed if it is stuck.

If head removal is the only way to get this off is it possible to just remove the oil line and squirt something in it to be sure.

On the fuel side does diesel gum up like gasoline?  I won't know if there is old fuel in the line still but there is fuel in the tank.


As rare as these pumps are I wouldn't assume anything but I would check it.  IIRC that stud on the side has to do with oil feed to the head (seems some later ones don't have that).  And old diesel can smell pretty bad so I wouldn't overlook that either.

So (IMO given the parts situation) you're looking at taking the pump off so you can gently feel whether it is seized or not.  Which isn't the worst job you'll probably meet on this animal.  A book will help.  If needed I can scan the pages on that from our AC 45 manual - but that is for a supercharged one and there are differences.  There is a little spring that lives in the pump timing shaft (or maybe this is only on the grader ones with supercharger drive?)

What you do next to check needs input from someone who has been there - I haven't.

It will help undoing the injector pipes from the pump if you have Allis special tool #??? to undo them.  For this you get a picture of one , get a long socket of the right size (impacts are cheaper here in Oz) and get creative with a thin cut-off in an angle grinder.  I posted on this here way back in bc.  You can do it with a spanner - painfully.

The low pressure fuel pipes use a patent rubber seal called a Sealastic.  Minnpar had most of them when I was in need.  Apparently you can cut rubbers for the ones without copper centres from appropriate sized neoprene tube.  The copper centre ones weren't available and they (iirc) are used on the oil feed pipes so treat gently when you undo those.

Also be aware that you are NOT going to be turning the engine to injection pump references before you take the pump off.  But setting up to put it back when everything is freed up is not a pain if you follow the manual.

My 2 cents worth for now

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I am getting a service manual for this.
Reading more up on these injection pumps I think it will definitely be worth removing. I see lots of potential problems looking at the diagrams. As far as rebuilding them I don't see anything scary. It actually looks rather simple to me. I am also comparing this to rebuilding automatic transmissions.

I would be shocked if any of the rubber seals are still good. Usually but not always if you have a seal number it can be matched up. 

This brings me back to the hydraulic pump. Anything I should be concerned about here? Would it be worth removing as well and can it be removed once the radiator is out of the way. No way to get under it until it's moved, unless I do a whole lot of digging.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAL(KS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2018 at 9:47am
Originally posted by RonnieJones RonnieJones wrote:

I am getting a service manual for this.
Reading more up on these injection pumps I think it will definitely be worth removing. I see lots of potential problems looking at the diagrams. As far as rebuilding them I don't see anything scary. It actually looks rather simple to me. I am also comparing this to rebuilding automatic transmissions.

I would be shocked if any of the rubber seals are still good. Usually but not always if you have a seal number it can be matched up. 

This brings me back to the hydraulic pump. Anything I should be concerned about here? Would it be worth removing as well and can it be removed once the radiator is out of the way. No way to get under it until it's moved, unless I do a whole lot of digging.
its not the rebuilding part that is difficult on the ambac pumps,  its finding the parts.  not many shops working on them cause of parts inexistence



Edited by CAL(KS) - 30 Nov 2018 at 9:48am
Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD10W,HD16

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, R62, R72 HD15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnCO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2018 at 11:07am
As long as there is oil in the hydraulic system, the chances of damaging the pump is small, although I guess it could have gotten water in it that could cause damage.  Perhaps loosening a line at the pump and seeing what comes out would be wise.  I wouldn't bother to drain the system unless the oil is really bad looking.  Generally, diesel fuel doesn't go bad like gas does, unless it has biodiesel in it, which is unlikely as it has been so long ago.  Again, water is the culprit to watch out for.  Draining a bit of fuel from the bottom of the tank will show what the condition of the fuel is.  Also rust in the tank can cause problems in the filters and even the pump if it gets to it somehow. I usually hook up a small fuel tank directly to the filters to avoid getting bad fuel in the system.  Once running, dealing with cleaning out the fuel tank and all the other projects is a lot more satisfying when you know the machine runs!



Edited by JohnCO - 30 Nov 2018 at 11:11am
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RonnieJones View Drop Down
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Joined: 28 Nov 2018
Location: California
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonnieJones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2018 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by JohnCO JohnCO wrote:

As long as there is oil in the hydraulic system, the chances of damaging the pump is small, although I guess it could have gotten water in it that could cause damage.  Perhaps loosening a line at the pump and seeing what comes out would be wise.  I wouldn't bother to drain the system unless the oil is really bad looking.  Generally, diesel fuel doesn't go bad like gas does, unless it has biodiesel in it, which is unlikely as it has been so long ago.  Again, water is the culprit to watch out for.  Draining a bit of fuel from the bottom of the tank will show what the condition of the fuel is.  Also rust in the tank can cause problems in the filters and even the pump if it gets to it somehow. I usually hook up a small fuel tank directly to the filters to avoid getting bad fuel in the system.  Once running, dealing with cleaning out the fuel tank and all the other projects is a lot more satisfying when you know the machine runs!

Water is definitely and issue. I noticed today that the Hydraulic tank has on open hole. So I am sure it's full of water. I don't know if water could possibly make it's way down there but not going to take a chance. This is the most I have looked it over in the last 2 years.
I also noticed that the main fuel lines are disconnected from the injection pump. I have lots of new pics to post on what I found today. It's going to be a few different post separating them.
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