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maccountry 
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 Topic: ACHD11 Ground system
Posted: 28 Jun 2014 at 9:05am |
Does the very old ACHD11 I got from a stone quarry have a posative or a negative ground system on it . It has two 12 volt batteries wired in serie's to put out 24 volts but it appears as if the original cabeling to the batteries has been reversed . It blooks like the person that put in the batteries ( me ) cris crossed the original battery cabels so that the negative terminal on the right side battery goes to ground , the posative terminal on the right side battery now has a cable accross to the negative terminal on the left side battery and the cable from the posative terminal on the left side battery goes to the hot side terminal on the starter . I put a starter button on the machine with the hot side terminal on the starter having a #10 wire to one side of the new momentary contact button I put on it and the other side #10 wire from the new button goes to the hot side of the starter solonoide. The existing (other side ) white wire on the solonoide goes to the large ground terminal on the starter with the large ( #2 maybe ) wire that goes to the frame ground .When I push the new button --- nothing happens either good or bad .No start , no smoke , no heat , no nothing ??? Help please Mac --- maccountry2264@yahoo.com --- Thank you in advance.
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DMiller
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Posted: 28 Jun 2014 at 9:46am |
First off almost all AC tractors were Positive ground so you do want to connect + to the frame off the first battery, - from the first to the + of the second battery and - off the second battery to a battery cutoff switch. From the other terminal of the cutoff or battery isolator switch another cable to the hot post of the starter. Should have a 12 or 10 gauge wire off the same starter hot post up to the instrument cluster thru a ammeter to a voltage regulator and then to the accessory components as the start button. Will have a - hot wire on one side of the start button and as long as the battery cutoff switch is closed the terminal should be hot with a voltmeter. The other terminal off the start button goes to the non-grounded side small terminal of the solenoid with the other small terminal on the starter solenoid connected to ground usually to the ground lug large terminal at the end of the motor itself. This is a really simplified drawing:  Need to add a line + to- battery to battery, sorry.
Edited by DMiller - 28 Jun 2014 at 9:47am
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 28 Jun 2014 at 9:47am |
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If you have the neg side of one battery to ground, and the positive side of the other battery to the starter, you have a negative ground system. If you changed it from what it was you need to flash the generator BEFORE starting the engine.
The starter doesn't care if it's positive or neg ground but the generator needs flashed so it can charge instead of discharge your battery.
As far as operating the solenoid, it shouldn't matter which way the system is grounded. It would be a lot easier to diagnose if a guy could see it in person.
Edited by CTuckerNWIL - 28 Jun 2014 at 6:25pm
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maccountry
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Posted: 28 Jun 2014 at 12:02pm |
Mr.Miller , First of all --- many thanks for your quick reply !! Next question , if I may , --- Must there be a battery cut off switch on the large posative wire coming from the battery to the starter ? With the exception of that item --- I wired every thing up as you have shown . When I hit the starter button it fired up in appx. one second ! I couldn't believe it fired that quickly .I let it run for about one minute only manually regulating the engine speed while it ran .Then I cut it off .Waited about 10 minutes and hit the start button again and it fired up , again , immediately .I let it run about 2 minutes and saw smoke at the starter.Cut the engine immediately but the starter continued to run.Apparrently couldn't hear it running with the noise from the engine.As quick as possible ( in about 2 minutes ) I disconnected the battery terminal .After that the large terminal on the front of the starter which had the ground on it was extremely hot . Waited about 30 minutes for things to cool down and went to re-attach the battery terminal wire and got a large flash and immediately melted a small section of the top of the battery terminal . I then disconnected every thing and came back to here ( the forum ) . What could I have done incorrectly ? Must the battery posative wire be immediately disconnected upon the engine firing via the battery cut off switch I saw on your drawing or should the starter solonoid have disengaged the starter posative wire when I took my hand off the starter button ? Hope I havent burned up a brand new starter . Look forward to your reply . Thank you in advance .
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DMiller
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Posted: 28 Jun 2014 at 12:24pm |
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Starter is locked in, take a small(relative) hammer (16 oz ballpeen works for me) and rap on the motor case, you should hear the starter bendix disengage with a fairly loud clack. If the tractor has not been started in some time could be the mechanism is just fouled on the motor shaft, can also be low voltage at the batteries can cause arc weld of the contact plate in the solenoid. If it sticks a second time take the starter off and have a shop inspect it and replace the solenoid as it can heat the armature to where it will throw solder and short.
I HIGHLY recommend a starter isolator switch, for those times someone else gets on the machine and does not know where it is cannot start it(kids).
Edited by DMiller - 28 Jun 2014 at 12:25pm
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maccountry
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Posted: 28 Jun 2014 at 12:48pm |
Hello , again , Mr.Miller . Many thanks for staying with me on my starter problems. I'm very new to working on this "beast" . It , how ever , isn't going to get me down though ! I will be pecking on the starter body with my 16 oz. claw hammer tomorrow . Your suggestion that due to its not having been run ( looked at my records ) for 4 years it could be hung in what I assume would be the "fly wheel" gearing seems as if that might have possabillitys . Might just pull it even if I do hear a loud "Clack" and at least inspect what I can see even though I doubt there will be much visable with the room there is in the starter gear entry port . Again --- many thanks for the help! really appreciate it !!
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Lazyts
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Posted: 28 Jun 2014 at 12:52pm |
Mac The way you described the cable routing in your first post is the proper way for HD11. They were negative ground, hot wire from left battery positive to starter, negative from left battery to right battery positive terminal, right hand battery negative through cut-off switch to ground.
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 28 Jun 2014 at 12:57pm |
 DMiller wrote:
Starter is locked in, take a small(relative) hammer (16 oz ballpeen works for me) and rap on the motor case, you should hear the starter bendix disengage with a fairly loud clack. If the tractor has not been started in some time could be the mechanism is just fouled on the motor shaft, can also be low voltage at the batteries can cause arc weld of the contact plate in the solenoid. If it sticks a second time take the starter off and have a shop inspect it and replace the solenoid as it can heat the armature to where it will throw solder and short.
I HIGHLY recommend a starter isolator switch, for those times someone else gets on the machine and does not know where it is cannot start it(kids). |
The starter being "locked in" physically will NOT make smoke come out. The only way that could be is if the solenoid is locked in and keeping power to the starter. The solenoid could be 3 feet away from the starter, so tapping on the starter may not help a bit. If you added this solenoid, is it rated at 24 volts? If not, it's probably welded shut and will continue to supply power to the starter as long as the battery has power.
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DMiller
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Posted: 28 Jun 2014 at 1:15pm |
Sorry Ctucker, been a heavy equipment wrench too long, have seen all too many bendix stay engaged making the starter cook, overspeeds the motor as well cooks off from too much energy application from the batteries. If the unit in question has a motor mounted solenoid then it can hang in engaged and the only way to drop it back out is a tap or take it loose. Even if remote solenoid should the starter hang in they act as a generator again over speeding the armature and flinging wire/solder inside the motor case.  Typical MT40 as on my donor, solenoid motor mounted.
Edited by DMiller - 28 Jun 2014 at 1:19pm
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JC-WI
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Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 12:53am |
At full 24 volts, lead posts melt fast if you attach cables to them while there is a load still hooked on the other end. Learned that the hard way... kinda like you just did.
sounds like solenoid is stuck in engagement... check for burnt posts inside solenoid... or old grease on shaft or something binding to prevent return of bendix.
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DiyDave
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Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 5:39am |
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low voltage can also make contacts stick...
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maccountry
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Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 6:06am |
Good morning Gentlemen,Thanks to Mr.Miller , Tucker , JC , Lazyts for all the insite as to my "starter wiring" difficultys! I have arrived at what may turn out to be the ultimate wrong conclusion based on all divergent opinions & ideas you gave me.Being totally uneducated in the subject myself .I believe the starter "solenoid" is welded in the closed position.It is a starter mounted one.The starter and its solenoid are brand new from a local shop.The owner assured me all of the components are 24 volt.My batteries are also brand new.They are exactly like the ancient ones that were in it when I bought the machine.The existing wiring scheme is exactly like the drawing Mr.Miller sent me on this site .It is a posative ground system .The only difference is that mine doesn't have a battery cable main cut off switch .Which , by the way , I think is a great idea and will be installed.I don't think the starter motor "bendix" is stuck unless the shaft to the gear is broken or the teeth have all sheered off because when it contunued to run with out my pushing the starter button it was running very fast with the motor of the machine stopped and I heard no grinding or breakage sounds --- just a continuse whine until I disconnected the battery terminal and then it slowed quickly as any rotating body would --- not as if it was damaged physically.The body of the starter it self was warm but not really hot to the touch and the only part that was really hot was the terminal on the very front of the starter body that uhose cable went to the machine frame ground .Even the small #10 wires to and from the starter button were not even warm .It seems to me that if the bendix were stuck in the activated position I would have to have severe damage to the gearing since the starter was running wide open when the machings motor was stopped .Also since the starter motor was still running when I finally got the battery terminal disconnected I think it had not yet melted the internal solder down . I would appreciate any comments on my conclusions please.I still am going to remove the whole starter/solenoid and look it over.Maybe even bench test it to see if the bendix is working and the gears turning. Looking forward to any comments to help a novice please. thanks in advance . Mac McGrail maccountry22640@yahoo.com
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maccountry
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Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 6:11am |
Thanks , also , to Diy Dave for your input. Mac
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DMiller
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Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 7:08am |
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Mac, have you tried the hammer thump yet?, or are you pulling the starter right off? Regardless I would get the solenoid end cap off and verify the contacts did not weld out. Been down this road a time or two just be cautious around the batteries when everything is hot, they can pop unexpectedly spraying all around with acid, keep a hose handy.
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Andrew_D
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Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 8:02am |
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Mine had the contacts in the starter switch arc closed once. Didn't melt the battery post, but melted the lead clamp on the cable before I could get it undone. Definitely going to be putting a battery disconnect switch on mine while it is in the shop as that's a much faster way to disconnect in case it happens again!!!
Andrew
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maccountry
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Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 8:40am |
Hello , again , Mr.Miller and Hello Andrew_D, As to Mr.Miller's note --- I was a bit frustrated yesterday with the problem so I left the batteries disconnected and went back to the house for the day. I will be going back down to the machine today and the first of two things I will be doing is the hammer banging on the body of the starter moter to see if the bendix is stuck and will release.The second thing I am going to try if the first does not work is Andrew's suggestion and I will be disconnbecting the Starter switch from its two wires and will put a meter on it to make sure it is not welded shut in the "Activate Solenoid" position .It is also a brand new push button momentary contact switch . If either one of these options don't pan out it will be easier for me to remove the entire starter motor/solenoid combined than to try to remove the solenoid end cap since its only 3 times 15/16 th.bolts and slide it out and pick it up and out . I would try to remove the solenoid end cap but I really don't know what I'm doing and don't understand how it is attached to the body of the solenoid and how it comes off around the piece of copper buss that goes from it into the starter motor .Seems like I may be picking a heavy lifting job instead of a light one but at least I would be able to see better what I'm doing unless you folks can guide me . As always --- many thanks for your replys and guidence.
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maccountry
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Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 1:47pm |
To all the folks that assisted me with my Starter problem --- First I wish to thank each and every one of you that responded to me : D Miller , C Tucker , JC , DiyDave , Lazyts , Andrew_D ----- With out your assist I would still be looking at a "Dead Beast" . I got it running this afternoon .Ran it for about 15 minutes just to see the oil pressure , fuel pressure , temperature and amp gauge come up to their right levels . I disassembled the starter solenoid in place on the starter moter to examine the contact points & they were clean and un-stuck , disasempled the starter manual switch and put an ohm meter on it and it was fine , rapped on the starter motor body with a claw hammer for a while ( no audable "Clack" ) , rewired every thing and started it up once for about 30 seconds and then shut it down , waited about 5 minutes and fired it up again --- listened carefully for a continually running started motor ( none ) , took the battery cable that goes to the solenoid off at the battery to make sure it would not re-fire the solenoid some how , let it run for 15 minutes . Sounded great !! Now to move it from where it has been for 4 years and then start on the ground work . Many thanks to all , again . Don't know what caused the problem but satisfied it did not return ------ yet !
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DMiller
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Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 4:56pm |
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May have been just a fluke, should be OK but I would be putting that disconnect on for certain now! Good luck with the beast, should be a good tractor if runs out well. Got photos yet? Post em as you get em.
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DiyDave
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Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 7:38pm |
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I know DMiller's pictures are not of your machine, but if you look at the hot wire, on his starter, you can see broken insulation on the hot wire to the solenoid. Broken insulation lets in moisture, which corrodes copper wire (the greenies), lowers the effective voltage due to internal resistance. I would recommend replacing any hot wire with broken insulation. Same thing happened to our D-19, we used it so little toward the end, that it welded the solenoid connections together. I once bought a little Mitsubishi Beaver tractor at auction, that the auctioneer couldn't get started, for a good price, I walked around for an hour, beating the hot wire on items, wiggling it back and forth, and twisting and untwisting it. When I put it back on the tractor, and started it up, while the auctioneer was selling the tractor on the opposite side of the row, he was not pleased, that I got it for a bargain, and all that was wrong was that wire...
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DMiller
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Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 9:31pm |
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My donor tractor had other issues, least of which was good intentioned scrapyard mods the previous owner had to consider made it better while at best were cobbled messes. A little more in the way of good maintenance on his part it would not have come to become a donor. The engine block is cracked just to the rear of the head surface in the photo, you will see a diagonal line, that is a freeze crack, partially externally fixed with epoxy, the real damage was inside where it broke across a oil gallery to the coolant side, put oil in water and water in the oil. He evidently could not register to that being the case and tore the engine apart trying to fix a external source not the cracked block.
And yes a 'green' internally corroded cable has increased resistance, will barely allow energy flow to feed a starter or from a generator.
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maccountry
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Posted: 04 Jul 2014 at 5:44pm |
DMiller --- Sir --- if you are still around and would like to help me again I would greatly appreciate it . Got my ACHD11B (2675) running as you know from my previous starter problems. Now that it is starting & running so well I would like it to move and the blade to raise and lower. --- Nothing happens when I engage the main clutch lever or when I engage the blade lever either up or down (its just sitting on the ground) .Don't know where or how to check fluids? Was all operational when I parked it and winterized it 5 years ago.There is a large tank with the blade control lever in the drivers compartment.It has a cap of some sort on its top that is easily unscrewed or screwed and it gets real loose but does not come off and I don't want to force it.It could be some type of tank vent.Don't see a dip stick any where.Two metal hydrolic lines come out of it to a valve body and then on to the blade hydrolic rams. Don't know if some how the fluid has bled down over the years.No sign of leakage. as to master drive clutch --- it feels right.About a 10 pound pull with a posative finish when all the way back and a posative finish when all the way forward .No movement.Again where do I check fluids --- if any ?? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you , in advance , for any help you might offer .
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