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HYDROGEN - the clean fuel

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Coke-in-MN View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 Jun 2024 at 12:56pm
https://www.truckinginfo.com/10223238/red-ice-and-blue-on-the-hunt-for-a-hydrogen-truck-engine-part-1?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20240621_1705:66704a6f5f9f71371f082148:ot_NL-HDT-EquipmentReport-20240619&omid=1009689398&cid=6346623e539111e4c30259cd

Hydrogen is one of the most abundant substances in the universe. It is also an incredibly powerful, energy dense fuel. A gallon of hydrogen contains three times the energy content as a gallon of gasoline. That’s why it’s been used as rocket fuel since the earliest days of the Space Age.

Hydrogen is a clean fuel, too. Water is the only by-product of the hydrogen combustion process.

At a glance, hydrogen seems like the perfect fuel for a modern, transportation-dependent society threatened by climate change.

But there are significant problems with hydrogen, as well.

It’s a very expensive, and energy-intensive fuel to produce in large quantities. It’s also unsafe. The fuel is so volatile that it can ignite, without a spark, at much lower air temperatures than fossil fuels. It’s also odorless and colorless. When ignited, it burns with an intense blue flame that cannot be seen in daylight.

Obviously, those realities also make hydrogen a difficult fuel to store, transport and carry on vehicles.

But those hurdles notwithstanding, there is widespread hope that hydrogen will prove to be the Holy Grail for modern transportation systems. Work is being carried out all over the world now to find ways to make hydrogen safe and reliable to use in everything from container ships, aircraft, passenger cars and – yes – trucks.

https://youtu.be/S8Zzcy8YWD0?si=PHhBjnlRd4UrmiYf

Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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DMiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2024 at 5:31pm
Is a Lie as to Energy Dense, takes far more Hydrogen to produce a Hp than Petroleum, as it must be compressed and returned to a gas for use, is explosive at 4% atmosphere to 74% atmosphere.  Gasoline needs to vaporize and diesel needs atomized but produce Stable energy at low fuel consumption.  No Material known to Humans can Contain H2, will seep thru any and ALL structures including massively thick steel, its smallest atom atomic structure precludes absolute containment.  Volumetrically takes 10 times More H2 to produce enough heat to make HP as does any other fuel, and over 85% of all H2 is sourced from Natural Gas.



Edited by DMiller - 22 Jun 2024 at 5:33pm
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Coke-in-MN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2024 at 5:48pm
Back in the 50's AC had their fuel cell tractor which produced around 25 HP and around 1999 the place I worked was making fuel cell plates for a GM design they acquired from AC which amounted to a small suitcase sized unit making 180 HP .
 The part was rather than using it to power reciprocating engine it produced electric to run motors . It seems in above article it shows diesel type engine running Hydrogen fuel and Honda using a fuel cell  - 2 different uses and same outcome - POWER . Both without the weight of batteries which we are told is the ULTIMATE Solution to ban the engines that have powered transportation over last 100 years 
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2024 at 6:27pm
A hydrogen fuel cell's electric capacity is much more useful than in internal combustion.

In order to fall into the advertised energy density (pronounced: liquified), the amount of resources one needs to GET IT to liquid state is enormous...  well over 40 times the amount of energy you get OUT of it.

And the resources and equipment needed to KEEP IT in that state, is enormous.

It is, in liquid state, very, very, very, very dangerous.

I use bottled gasses, cryogenic substances, and pressure vessels all the time.  These materials are NOT to be casually handled or transported, as basically ALL damages, injuries and deaths caused, occur in handling and transportation.

First and foremost, A motor fuel must be STABLE in atmospheric conditions... that means, if you're in an accident, and there's loss of containment, tragic things (like explosions, toxic fires, etc) won't easily happen.

A good example of this circumstance is Composition 4... it is an explosive, developed many decades ago to take the place over lots of OTHER explosives, as a general-purpose solution for problems. 

You can take a fist-full of C4 out of it's package,  tear off a little bit, roll it into a ring, wrap it around the bottom of a soup can, LIGHT IT... and in a minute, you'll have a nice warm dinner.

You can light a brick of it, and put a wild pig on a spit, and have a nice dinner for a dozen hungry men...  and it WON"T EXPLODE.

It requires a detonator to explode... intense pressure, to make the flame-front go hypersonic.

If you have a liquid hydrogen tank mounted inside a truck, and whack the valve off, you have an unguided missle that smashes through everything in it's path.  THEN there's an explosion, because the expanding hydrogen (which flashes into a gas at -200F) needs more space to exist at atmospheric pressure) and then it mixes with a little air, and then autoignites.

It is correctly advertised as used in rocket fuel for energy DENSITY reasons, but what they're not acknowledging, is the amount of OVERHEAD ENERGY, and LOSS required to get it to launch situation, and the fact that, if the launch is scrapped, they loose it ALL.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2024 at 7:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klinemar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2024 at 5:48am
Hydrogen fuel. Think Hindenburg!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2024 at 6:12am
If eliminate 3-4 BILLION humans and the 'need' for 'green' vehicle power isn't needed.
Anyone see proper  mass transit being built into all the new cities for the 'new arrivals' ??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2024 at 7:53am
Originally posted by klinemar klinemar wrote:

Hydrogen fuel. Think Hindenburg!

That was my first thought as well!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2024 at 10:59am
As each NEW idea is presented , the nay-sayers have many ideas of how it's bad .
Can one imaging FIRE when individuals cam in contact the first time , heat , light , and BURN .
Steam , from simple seeing it rise above water over fire , to a container building pressure , to heat transfer , steam piston producing rotary motion or mechanical energy , to blowing up a building , boat or closed vessel containing it .
  Then electric where Edison electrocuted a elephant to show DC was safe and AC dangerous . 
  But guess we can blame the Chinese for developing a material that expanded into a gas - fireworks and later gun powder for all the problems it's caused in history since invented . 
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2024 at 2:39pm
On a mass basis, hydrogen has nearly three times the energy content of gasoline. It seems that we have transported gasoline to power cars around safely for about a century. Why would we think we couldn't safely power vehicles with hydrogen?

It kind of reminds me of my grandfather telling the story about a neighbor who claimed that every house that had electricity installed would burn down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2024 at 3:50pm
Well of course you 'can' safely power vehicles with hydrogen, but it's all in those nasty 'details'.
1st..cost to produce the hydrogen
2nd..how to refuel the cars
3rd ..nationwide 'hydrogen stations'
4th ..range of the cars
5th.. repair cost of cars
6th..resell value
7th.. life of car
8th..store car in attached garage ?
9th.. ACTUAL cost per mile to drive car
10..ALL of above WITHOUT ANY subsidies !!!!

Unless all of the above can be shown to be feasible AND at a LOWER cost than gas, then it's NOT worth it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2024 at 3:51pm
well... it cost several times more and is COMPRESSED to 10,000 psi inside a can.. for starters !!  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrianC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2024 at 5:02pm
Seeing as Hyundai can't seem to keep a/c refrigerant contained, should we expect a more successful effort with high pressure hydrogen?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Walker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2024 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by klinemar klinemar wrote:

Hydrogen fuel. Think Hindenburg!
         That's what I was thinking, the pilot will vouch for the heat content.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigal121892 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2024 at 7:08pm
There are a lot of Youtube video's of people who can't figure out how to put gas in their Tesla, image them trying to refuel it with hydrogen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2024 at 11:11am
After working on the prototype GM fuel cell for 5 years and making the plates by chemical milling system - the biggest problem was COST of the titanium plates used within the units . When the company shut down in 2003 the rights were transferred to a small company on East coast where alternative to Titanium was being worked on .
  Seems Iceland has solved many of the fueling problems along with the production of the Hydrogen itself .
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2024 at 2:51pm
Why this one sticks in my mind Confused I don't know.  Farm Show magazine had retired guy in the early 1980's in Ok that was making hydrogen from a windmill on his farm pond. Getting enough to putt around his property, maybe drive to town in his old ranch pickup.

Maybe it was all BS. I was young and dumb, staying one step ahead being broke. Never looked at all of what it would take. But several years before had to listen to hippy type college teacher promote how H power would save the world.

Besides Paul Harvey would go off extolling how perfect a fuel hydrogen was IF, IF, IF another problem would be solved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2024 at 4:54pm
Have to add this here, so those outside the Political Section can SEE it.

The Washington Post now notes the DECREASES in Atmospheric Pollutants as Sulphur Dioxide, those considered by the CC Freaks to be causing CC have been Actually ACCIDENTALLY Cooling the Planet.  The fanatics need to be physically held responsible for the Heating they have caused for the Last 50+ years. Along with the EPA Idiots that pushed these agenda games such as All those Sulphur Reduction Pollution Controls Devices and Electronics that we the public were Forced to Comply With and Pay For.



Edited by DMiller - 25 Jun 2024 at 4:55pm
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