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calico190xt68 
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Joined: 12 Jan 2017
Location: Frankton, IN
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 Posted: 27 Feb 2023 at 8:35am |
Here is my update on this problem. I did get the lift cylinders rebuilt over the
weekend. I am going to document everything in another post. However, I did end up with a few twists. I decided to stop and get things clarified before I did the tilt cyllinders. I left the bucket up over night and it might have crept down 6 inches in 12 hours so I think that says it is fixed.
The first cylinder had a
severe leak. However, I think I am missing a flat rubber
ring in the collar after reinstalling. When I went to do the second cylinder, I found the
flat rubber ring in the collar. It was missing in the first collar. I didn't see a flat rubber ring in my rebuild kit. I also ended up with two extra parts. I
couldn't figure out where they would go. My guess is that this rebuild
kit is for other cylinders too? See the pictures below. I don't
really want to take it apart at this stage but I rather be done with it so I might. My guess is that the Oring will slip around in the groove and eventually have the same situation.
First collar. Notice the badly mangled O ring. Maybe because the flat rubber is missing?
Here is second with flat rubber before i replaced the Oring.
Here are the extra parts. Made me nervous but when I disassembled there was nothing that matched.
I could never wrap my head around how the bottom rings stay together until I pulled it apart. This is what I started with in case others might not know what it looks like. 
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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calico190xt68
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Joined: 12 Jan 2017
Location: Frankton, IN
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Posted: 27 Feb 2023 at 10:16am |
I called A&W and they said the extra parts are for the inside of the collar. I didn't replace the inside because I didn't see a matching part. They didn't look mangled either. I guess the hard brown washer and the smaller Oring can be used in place of the hard plastic ring I saw. See below picture on what I saw. As well, A&W also said there is only one Oring on the outside of the collar so I shouldn't have to take it apart. Now that this is clarified, I will take the tilt cylinders apart.
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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Gary
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Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Peterborough,On
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Posted: 27 Feb 2023 at 10:32am |
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Hi Calico
Now that you have a cylinder taken apart, you will see that a lot of advice you were given above does not apply to your 'double acting' cylinder.
- no big Head to unscrew
- no big nut on the shaft to unscrew
- DON'T use a hammer and punch to remove the recessed retaining Nut - use the Tool. As mentioned, could damage internal threads of Cylinder ( or nick Shaft )
- no 'come a-long Winch needed to pull the Shaft Assembly out.
- no Snap Ring inside to debur
Looking at your pictures, the part you are referring to as the Collar is actually called the Bearing. It doesn't move and is held in place by the internal 'Retaining Nut'. The Outer O Ring seals the Bearing to the Cylinder Wall.
The smaller Internal O Ring seals the Bearing to the Piston Rod / Shaft.
This is where one of those flat Washers goes.
It is referred to as a 'Back-up Washer', and goes in the Bearing inside groove before the O Ring.
The Back-up Washer goes next to the O Ring on the side towards the Nut.
The Packing Set ( often called Chevron Seals because of their shape ), the 2 wide, flat 'Wear Strips', and the matched 'Bearing Halves - all get assembled to make up the 'Piston'.
Hope this helps you to better understand the terminology and assembly for overhauling the Lift and Tilt Cylinders used on 400 Series and 500 Series Loaders.
Gary
.........................................................
Looks like you were getting your answer while I was posting.
Did they tell you the proper location of the Back-up Washer ?
FYI I get all my info from an Allis Loader Parts Catalog.
G
Edited by Gary - 27 Feb 2023 at 10:50am
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calico190xt68
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Location: Frankton, IN
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Posted: 27 Feb 2023 at 2:24pm |
Thanks Gary for the terminology. Yes, they did tell me about the order of the internal rings had I used them. They said that the inner plastic ring was not standard that I show. It looked hard to remove and since I didn't have a matching part, I left it alone. i wonder if it seals correctly versus the spacer washer and the oring. Should I remove it on my tilt cylinders, if I find it? It was obvious that my outer orings on the bearing were damaged and bad.
I am going to document this in detail when I am finally done. However, I tried to use a spanner tool but my nuts were so badly mangled by the last guy using a punch, I had no choice. I thought about cleaning up the nuts and grinding them square but I didn't want to do further damage. A&W said they try to make the slots square so that a spanner tool stays in the groove next time. My grease seal also was completely missing on the first cylinder which also made the spanner tool hard to keep in place.
I also think it was a huge advantage to keep the cylinder on the tractor to do the job. As you point out, no vice needed, no big nut to unscrew, no come-along to pull it out.
I pulled the first one by hand and it came out fairly easy because it was not sealed well. The second was a different story and I could not pull by my own force. However, I got smart and used the tractor to push the rod out and free the bearing (I called it previously collar) from the cylinder. I removed the top pin from the loader, unscrewed the retaining nut, retracted it back with joystick and then forward with tractor hydraulics and it popped right out. I then pulled by hand the rest of the way.
I also didn't realize that once you disconnect the rod part of cylinder from the loader, the other side doesn't work. I thought the other side would continue to work and move the loader up and down. That's why I could use the tractor to remove the rod from the cylinder though.
I spent a lot of time looking at parts and trying to make sure I knew what I was doing. Now that I have done it twice, I think I can do it pretty quickly. I am happy to have learned and not screwed up anything learning!
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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Gary
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Location: Peterborough,On
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Posted: 27 Feb 2023 at 8:11pm |
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Calico
Look closely at the Link to the picture of a compete Seal Kit that I sent you on Feb. 2.
The top row left end, and centre row left end are the 2 Piston Wear Strips.
The top row centre would be the 'Back-up flat Washer' for the smaller inner O Ring inside the Bearing ( Re: Collar )
The top row right end would be the 'Wiper Seal', next to the Nut.
The centre row centre is the inner O ring and requires the 'Back-up flat Washer.
It's purpose is to squeeze the O Ring and force it to seal tighter against the shaft and to the Bearing Groove.
I believe whatever is in that inner Bearing Groove needs to be removed.
Perhaps try the Bearing on the Shaft with the existing seal and see how snug a fit it is when attempting to move it.
It needs to be a rather snug fit and difficult to move along the Shaft.
Otherwise it will leak Oil out the end.
The centre row right end would be the Bearing Outer O Ring.
I would carefully inspect and feel the Inner Surface of the Orange Cylinder to be sure it is smooth with no nicks or other damage.
Something has seriously damaged that existing seal in your picture.
Gary
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 28 Feb 2023 at 8:50am |
 Gary wrote:
Calico
I believe whatever is in that inner Bearing Groove needs to be removed.
Perhaps try the Bearing on the Shaft with the existing seal and see how snug a fit it is when attempting to move it.
It needs to be a rather snug fit and difficult to move along the Shaft.
Otherwise it will leak Oil out the end.
The centre row right end would be the Bearing Outer O Ring.
I would carefully inspect and feel the Inner Surface of the Orange Cylinder to be sure it is smooth with no nicks or other damage.
Something has seriously damaged that existing seal in your picture.
Gary |
Gary, thanks again for the detailed advice. The bearing was tight when I tried to move the bearing down the rod for final assembly. I couldn't move it with my hand. I took a block of wood and hammer and nudged it down the rod. However, that does not mean that the hard plastic piece is correct for the long term.
I will attempt to remove the hard plastic on the tilt cylinders (assuming it is there) and use the correct parts. It may not come out easy. It seems to be a hard plastic and not flexible at all. There is no gap in it either. Any ideas or tricks to remove it? Once I start tearing it up, I will have to get it out.
How would i feel way down into the cylinder for nicks? Not sure my hand or arm can go very far into it?
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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Gary
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Posted: 28 Feb 2023 at 7:39pm |
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No not way down in the orange cylinder, just the top 2 inches or so, where the 'outer O ring will travel "while you are installing the 'Bearing'.
Once you install the top Bearing and it is seated in the recess at the top of the Cylinder, the Nut holds it in place and the outer O Ring will never move.
Gary
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Alex09(WI)
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Posted: 12 Mar 2023 at 11:06pm |
Better late than never I guess, but we just made a step by step video for rebuilding these A-C specific cylinders. Hopefully it will give you more guidance when you reseal the other 2 cylinders.
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KEEPING ALLIS-CHALMERS IN THE FIELDS THROUGH THE 21ST CENTURY
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Dave (NE)
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Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 1:07pm |
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Good videos!
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Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. Mark Twain.
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WF owner
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Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 2:10pm |
Alex, Great videos!!!
How about starting a new thread about rebuilding these cylinders and asking it be moved to "Knowledge Based".
Curt
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 6:48pm |
Yes, I could have used these videos before I tackled my job! However, I have goofed around and not done the tilt cylinders so learned a few tricks from the videos before I do them.
I was going to make a video about the repair but yours is a lot better than what I can do.
I had a hard time with those last piston halves and kind of pounded them in. I saw no other option at the time. Don't think I did any damage but I was worried about that.
I do think removing the piston while on the tractor is still a good idea. Once it is out, you can still remove the cylinder. I did not do a proper inspection on the cylinder as done in the videos since I left them on the tractor though.
Nice work and thanks for the videos. It really makes it very clear on how to do the job now. I vote for knowledge base too. It isn't hard if you have a little guidance.
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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AC7060IL
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Posted: 14 Mar 2023 at 7:23am |
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Alex09(WI), your 500 loader cylinder rebuild videos are awesome! Thanks for sharing.
Are the big items; rams(cyl rods?), bearings, pistons, & pipe canisters still available?
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 07 Aug 2023 at 2:58pm |
Another update on this issue. After about 3 weeks the cylinder started leaking again. So, I replaced the seal kit based upon Alex's A & W Tractor videos thinking I did something wrong. After doing it twice, I decided to get some professional advice and it turns out that my rod has a slight bend in it. I noticed that it did not leak when mostly retracted and did not leak when mostly extended but leaked in the middle. Apparently, the cylinder didn't leak after I put the new seal kit in it because it needed to be used to wear the seal by the bend. The consensus is that if I installed it incorrectly, it would have leaked immediately. To replace the rod it was estimated to cost about $500 per cylinder. One was way worse than the other. So, I decided to look around for new ones.
I found Majister Hydraulics (that claimed to be made in Europe and not China) bought a 2 inch bore by 36 inch stroke cylinder and it fit perfectly as the lift cylinder. The rod diameter is 1.25 inches versus 1.5 inches on the original cylinder but it seems to have plenty of power on lift. It is way more controlled on up and down now. No leaks either. Best of all I got it for $209 and free shipping. I am probably going to replace the tilt cylinders next. I measured the maximum lift height and it is sitting at about 133 inches so very close to the original cylinder on a 190xt.
The only thing I miss is the metal line going to the top cylinder inlet like the original. I had to zip tie the hose to keep it stationary.
Ignore the worn out tire, that is getting replaced too. Driving on the road too much has worn it out.
Here it is installed:
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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Gary
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Posted: 20 hours 49 minutes ago at 8:09pm |
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So Michael
Did you end up replacing 'all' 4 of your repaired / resealed cylinders with those new black ones?
I did all 4 cylinders on my 415 about 5 years ago, and so far so good.
Gary
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 6 hours 60 minutes ago at 9:58am |
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I did replace all 4 cylinders with the black ones. They work well as replacements so far. The 190xt is down right now for multiple repairs. I overused it as a loader tractor and clutch is going to be replaced. Got a skidsteer to avoid that in the future once fixed.
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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