This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity.
The Forum Parts and Services Unofficial Allis Store Tractor Shows Serial Numbers History
Forum Home Forum Home > Allis Chalmers > Construction and other equipment
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


HD-6B /AG Engine swap options

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
kblackav8or View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Location: Woodland WA
Points: 80
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kblackav8or Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: HD-6B /AG Engine swap options
    Posted: 04 Feb 2021 at 8:57pm
Well I haven't pulled pan yet on the 7000 engine but I want to examine options of trying to find scarce parts to rebulid/repair vs a swap to something else.  A 3/71 seems like a decent option.  What about other 4 cyl 4 stroke diesels out of other equipment?  Which SAE bellhousing do these machines have? 
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Lazyts View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Location: Manitoba
Points: 627
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lazyts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2021 at 12:13pm
Back to Top
DMiller View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 29423
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2021 at 12:20pm
Had looked up trying to find parts for my aged 7G to overhaul, rings pistons and such were good to go, bearings were slim pickings and anything beyond valves or nozzles in the head slimmer.  Used are some still about but could not guarantee any better than what had.

Only real option was a 4BT Case/Cummins swap and that was well out of any budget I could come up with.  Also depended on Torque Converter or Clutch drive, converting a ring of sorts to drive the toothed drive coupler on a converter was gonna be difficult.  3/71 will give more RPM but HP to keep it moving will be lacking.


Edited by DMiller - 06 Feb 2021 at 12:22pm
Back to Top
Lazyts View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Location: Manitoba
Points: 627
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lazyts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2021 at 12:34pm
I'm planning a "poor man's rebuild" on an 11000 engine, in-frame:
-Head gasket kit
-New piston rings
-pull liners, hone with 4.5" flex hone, reinstall with new o-rings
-new rod bearings
-oil pan gasket
I've done variations of these rebuilds before, I only had problems re-using one piston, and should have known better as that engine had been run with the timing off- cracked some of the pistons.  I would honestly like to do main bearings too, but haven't found any yet.  All of the above parts are readliy available at present except the piston rings- had to scrounge on ebay for them.
Back to Top
HD6GTOM View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Location: MADISON CO IA
Points: 6627
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HD6GTOM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2021 at 10:38pm
I bought a used engine for my last hd6g. It came out of a crawler tractor. The whole bottom end was heavier than the OE motor I pulled out of the 6g. Higher HP too. My last 6g was a mid 1960's tractor. Easy to change the motor. If you switch engines, make sure the one you get has the oil main clutch.
Back to Top
kblackav8or View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Location: Woodland WA
Points: 80
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kblackav8or Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2021 at 7:30am
Mine is an HD-6B that already had an engine swap to a HD-6AG engine.  I believe it has a dry clutch.  I am thinking maybe a 3/71 detroit.  They are about 300ft/lbs of torque at 1400 rpm which would probably be all I need.  My understanding is a variation of the 7000 engine was used in Army generators in the 70s and maybe into the 80s.  It looks just like the engine in mine. 
Back to Top
Coke-in-MN View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Afton MN
Points: 41184
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2021 at 3:59pm
go one step further and go 4-71 -more of them around if going Detroit 

Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
Back to Top
Eric B View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 09 Feb 2012
Location: British Columbi
Points: 887
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2021 at 6:41pm
I agree with Coke on the 4-71 option providing there is sufficient room, I'm not too familiar with the dimensions under the hood. Don't forget, however, if you go with a 3-71 you can comfortably run 70's injectors giving you more HP. You would be easily over 100 HP if you do. Using an ideal timing pin will wake it up too. I have played around with injector size and timing on 6V53, 6-71 and 8V92's and the Detroits are great to work with... as the old saying goes about them "you either love'm or hate'm" LOL. 
Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
Back to Top
DMiller View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 29423
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2021 at 6:22am
Only issue with the two strokers is same as the Allis Buda engines
Parts are thinning back.
DD no longer carries much except some aftermarket available pieces
Western diesel in STL became Clark Diesel svc and no longer carries parts to reman the old style injector assemblies, they rely on Detroit Diesel to supply exch program electronics parts
Know this first hand trying to assist an old friend locate parts to rebuild his six 71.
Back to Top
kblackav8or View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Location: Woodland WA
Points: 80
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kblackav8or Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2021 at 1:30am
Several places seem to have 2 stroke detroit parts.  AC parts.. not so much.  I just wonder if a 4//71 will fit. 
Back to Top
Eric B View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 09 Feb 2012
Location: British Columbi
Points: 887
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2021 at 12:48pm
You'll have to do some very careful measuring if you find a 4-71 to look at. I don't imagine the rad can move forward any further on your HD6? Usually where there is a will there is a way. I don't think you will have any trouble finding Detroit parts because they were made by the hundreds of thousands and the benefit being the same series covers so many applications. It's a matter of door-knocking, lots of those parts are still on shelves. I've seen 6-71 inlines put in Bantam excavators that had 4-71's new, surprisingly with very little modification and that's adding 2 cylinders.
Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
Back to Top
SteveM C/IL View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Shelbyville IL
Points: 7968
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2021 at 7:47pm
Always wished the townships old AD40 I plowed snow with in the late 70's had a 6-71...maybe even a "T". Hit the drift with the V plow in 6th and drag down and slip in 4th for a little more then back up 1/8 mile and get another run at it!
Back to Top
Mactractor View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Location: New Zealand
Points: 652
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mactractor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2021 at 1:47am
Gotta hand it to the 71 series Jimmie. What other line of engines stayed in both production and service as long as they have?
Back to Top
kblackav8or View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Location: Woodland WA
Points: 80
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kblackav8or Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2021 at 4:49am
I have a friend with a 4/71 that needs rebuilt.  Not sure what era but he has an AC bellhousing with it and most of everything it needs to run.  I missing an exhaust manifold and maybe a couple other small things.  I am away from home.  I can't find dimensions on the 6000 or 7000 engine (length/width/height etc) Can someone throw a tape measure on theirs and post the dimensions (rough is good enough)  4/71 dimensions are not hard to find, I found those.  Next question - a 4/71 makes around the same torque as the turbo engine I have so I suspect I probably won't break things if I take it easy.  It already just spins the tracks without really trying.  A 3/71 probably would be ideal.  Torque is a bit less then my engine but has good horsepower and we know it will fit if I have the right pieces to connect everything up. 
Back to Top
Wes (VA) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Elkton, VA
Points: 510
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wes (VA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2021 at 7:31am
Theres an outfit in PA by the name of LEID diesel. Supposed to be good with them 2 strokers, parts and complete.
Back to Top
kblackav8or View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Location: Woodland WA
Points: 80
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kblackav8or Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 8:38pm
What about a 4BTA Cummins?  Key will be finding a correct bellhousing for the SAE 2 clutch setup.  What about a Deere engine?  I haven't had a chance to work on it but I am going to do some measuring while I am home and move it somewhere where it will be possible to work on it.  Still runs great but with water getting into the oil I am just moving it carefully around so I don't do further damage.  It could be just a head gasket.  It wasn't doing this until I changed the oil. 
Back to Top
CAL(KS) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 18 Sep 2009
Location: Chapman, KS
Points: 3732
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAL(KS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2021 at 10:05am
could be an injector cup.  if i recall this is a 7000 turbo engine?  
Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
Back to Top
kblackav8or View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Location: Woodland WA
Points: 80
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kblackav8or Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2021 at 9:58pm
That's correct.  A 7000 engine.  It does seem to smoke a fair bit.

Back to Top
CAL(KS) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 18 Sep 2009
Location: Chapman, KS
Points: 3732
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAL(KS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2021 at 7:03am
that could leak coolant into crankcase,  doesnt have to be into cylinder
Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
Back to Top
Eric B View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 09 Feb 2012
Location: British Columbi
Points: 887
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2021 at 11:24am
On the original HD6B where is the hydraulic pump mounted? One benefit with Detroit engines is having several options for accessory drives, some other makes don't seem to have more than the front pulley to drive the pump.
You could probably use a Case 336 cu. in. as the HP and physical size should be a close match. I have had several of those. The version of the 336 for bulldozers and loaders have the bigger crank journals. On these the pump drive is only off the front pulley.
Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
Back to Top
kblackav8or View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Location: Woodland WA
Points: 80
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kblackav8or Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2021 at 11:27am
Regardless of outcome, I would be interested in learning more about these Case engines. 
Back to Top
Eric B View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 09 Feb 2012
Location: British Columbi
Points: 887
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2021 at 11:52am
The greater reason I ran this thought on the 336 Case is that there should still be quite a few around compared to the A-C engines. I've had three 680 Case backhoes (still have one) with this engine plus one stationary set up. One I had to rebuild but the rebuild kit was reasonable. The root cause for that failure was neglect in previous ownership, cracked liner with A/F in the pan. Some have had this 336 fail due to diesel fuel dilution into the pan. Older used units that slightly increase the oil on the dipstick while using a bit of oil at the same time eventually end up with enough diesel in the bottom that the bearings fail. This can happen to any diesel and the problem is easy to address if caught in good time. Overall the 336's have been good performers for me. The engines in the backhoes have the smaller bearing journals but farm tractors, I believe, as well as for sure bulldozers and loaders have the bigger journals for heavier work loads. 
Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
Back to Top
kblackav8or View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Location: Woodland WA
Points: 80
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kblackav8or Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2021 at 2:01am
Tried to figure out my engine serial number and the plate is missing off the block it appears.  Some of you more experienced guys may be better able to tell what I have from some other photos I just took before leaving the US for work overseas.  So far as I know it got repowered with a 7000 engine at some point as previously mentioned. 







Back to Top
DiyDave View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Gambrills, MD
Points: 50480
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2021 at 4:49am
Tractor # 18906 would be a 1965...   Per Swinford's book.
Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!
Back to Top
kblackav8or View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Location: Woodland WA
Points: 80
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kblackav8or Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2021 at 3:26pm
Cheapest copy of that book I can find is $136.  Yikes. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.059 seconds.


Help Support the
Unofficial Allis Forum