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International tug at bottom of ocean

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Walker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Walker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2019 at 8:18pm
I know when they brought up Queen Ann's Revenge cannons from 300 years in shallow water off the Outer Banks they spent months and years preparing and stabilizing them for display. Took months just to remove the barnacles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TimNearFortWorth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2019 at 8:35pm
Used to run subsea wellhead systems from semi-submersibles and drill ships where the surface casing was 1 - 1-1/2" wall thickness. With cement shoe attached to the bottom 40' joint (think one-way check valve) we had to make sure each 30" OD joint was filled at the rig floor when made up which equalized the casing string at the water line while lowering (about 100' below rig floor).
Only ever seen two strings that had to be recovered due to someone forgetting to fill internally while running to the sea floor. Do not remember at what water depth the engineers later figured up the one failed at but made a helluva mess, flattened that heavy wall casing like a paper towel tube.
We got one string back but on the other the snaplock connector parted between casing joints and we dropped the casing. Took an ROV to find it, latch us on with drill pipe/giant cables so we could get it back up under the rig to the moonpool and cut it apart with torches.
We wanted to leave it on the sea floor (2000') but Korean govt. wanted it recovered due to US subs patrolling that area, took us nearly a week.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2019 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by chaskaduo chaskaduo wrote:

Probably different alloying of the steel and paint for corrosion resistance.


This is a very, very important factor... they're two entirely different materials.

Britan's iron industry in the late 1800's was huge in comparison to the US... around 7 million tons of IRON produced in the mid 1870's, and reaching 10 million tons around the time the Titanic's keel was laid (1909).  This production was split- half was iron, the other was early alloys (steels).  Although the ship's design technology was formidable for it's time (1909), the metal, and method was absolutely outclassed in every way by later technology used in US warships.  the Titanic's plates are more iron than 'modern' steel. 

In stark contrast, the CV-8 Hornet's Yorktown-class 1939 hull is STEEL, produced using much better raw materials, process control, alloy chemistry, and quality control.  The US's steel industry went from 2 million tons in the early 1870's to 26 million by the time Titanic was built... and a huge jump up by the time the Yorktown-class carriers were built.  A large majority of the US's ferrous production output was true steel, from the furnaces in Allentown/Bethlehem, Pittsburgh, Birmingham Alabama, Gary, Indiana, Milwaukee, and elsewhere.

The reason why this matters so much... is because the Titanic rests in a spot in the north atlantic where a combination of water temperatures, minerals and gases ejected from rifting have made wonderful home for a type of bacteria that voraciously consumes iron.  The Hornet's aquatic environment is much different with respect to bacteria and algae.


Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2019 at 11:47pm
That's really neat to learn! Never know what you'll find out on the Allis-Chalmers Forum! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnCO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2019 at 11:57pm
In the link nella posted on page 1, you can see a cable looped around the drawbar and something on the ship.  There might also be something holding the tractor in the front too.
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Walker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Walker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 2:27am
Originally posted by DaveKamp DaveKamp wrote:

Originally posted by chaskaduo chaskaduo wrote:


Probably different alloying of the steel and paint for corrosion resistance.


This is a very, very important factor... they're two entirely different materials.

Britan's iron industry in the late 1800's was huge in comparison to the US... around 7 million tons of IRON produced in the mid 1870's, and reaching 10 million tons around the time the Titanic's keel was laid (1909).  This production was split- half was iron, the other was early alloys (steels).  Although the ship's design technology was formidable for it's time (1909), the metal, and method was absolutely outclassed in every way by later technology used in US warships.  the Titanic's plates are more iron than 'modern' steel. 

In stark contrast, the CV-8 Hornet's Yorktown-class 1939 hull is STEEL, produced using much better raw materials, process control, alloy chemistry, and quality control.  The US's steel industry went from 2 million tons in the early 1870's to 26 million by the time Titanic was built... and a huge jump up by the time the Yorktown-class carriers were built.  A large majority of the US's ferrous production output was true steel, from the furnaces in Allentown/Bethlehem, Pittsburgh, Birmingham Alabama, Gary, Indiana, Milwaukee, and elsewhere.

The reason why this matters so much... is because the Titanic rests in a spot in the north atlantic where a combination of water temperatures, minerals and gases ejected from rifting have made wonderful home for a type of bacteria that voraciously consumes iron.  The Hornet's aquatic environment is much different with respect to bacteria and algae.


      You are showing interest in Titanic, got any input about the coal bunker fire being the reason behind her sinking? Sounds pretty feasible to me but ya don't seem to hear much about it. I'd like to know if it's internet bologna or a for real theory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 5:13am
Since this post started I’ve been doing a little research. I found a video that talks about the rescue and sinking. They had it all but saved and moving again when round 2 hit. If I understand correctly after the last man was safely on the rescue boat we actually sunk it our selves. As I understand it it was severely damaged and immobile. Not much mention of the planes cept that some landed on the Enterprise and others crashed in the ocean.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nella(Pa) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 5:21am
Originally posted by JohnCO JohnCO wrote:

In the link nella posted on page 1, you can see a cable looped around the drawbar and something on the ship.  There might also be something holding the tractor in the front too.


X 2
The rear tire at the bead isn't centered on the rim if it is still on the rim, I don't think that it is the camera angle making it look that way. The front tire looks ok. There is something half round at the front between the front wheels sticking out whatever that is.


Edited by nella(Pa) - 17 Feb 2019 at 5:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 10:30am
I wouldn't be least bit surprised if there was a coal bunker fire... it happened all the time... Towboats pushing barges up the river in front of my house would have fires every so often...  but I doubt it had much contribution to the sinking.  Suffice to say that an iceberg was essentially a filet knife to the ship's belly.

CV-8 was beat up pretty bad by three Japanese bombs and two torpedos.  The crew did an incredible job of damage control, kept it afloat, but disabled, it was put in tow behind the Northampton... but at only 5 knots, and no maneuverability, it put TWO ships at serious risk.  Hornet took another torpedo hit, so the crew was pulled off, and they attempted to scuttle it with five inch rounds and torpedos... but it simply would NOT sink.  As it was adrift and abandoned, two Japanese destroyers sent it down with four torpedos.  Because of it still floating after all that damage, guys said the Hornet was a supernatural beast... and it was for that reason, that sailors were proud to see then name was revived with CV-12 (the Essex-class Kearsarge was renamed Hornet when it was finished in '43).  It probably confused and then mortified Japanese naval intelligence a bit to find that a ship they'd just reported sunk, was bearing down on the Caroline Islands only a year-and-something later... but with a totally new look, bristling with weapons and technology they'd never seen. LOL

I'm certain that tug was 'tied down'.  Standard procedure for mobile equipment on ship to be secured when not in use.


Edited by DaveKamp - 17 Feb 2019 at 10:37am
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 11:55am
Update from an OLDER Guy that served on old Carriers, the tires were filled with ballast, Cement for point in fact so were a No Flat tire as well. And yes the little tug would have been Battle Secured in its storage location.
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Walker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Walker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 9:01pm
Titanic is said to have been traveling so fast when it hit was because they were trying to empty that bunker but by then the fire had moved into a second bunker and the heat had compromised integrity of the hull.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 9:24pm
I've heard that theory, and I'll admit I don't know a lot about steamships, but I've often wondered even if they were burning so much coal, couldn't they still keep the reciprocating engines slowed down and just vent excess steam? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Walker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 1:56am
Good question, it didn't get into that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 5:54am
Venting steam wastes water and energy, the bunker fire had it been happening would not have been helped much as just making lots of free steam does not make use of lots of coal, has to be used and work loaded for the condensers to recover to make more steam. Feed and reheat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 7:47am
Originally posted by CrestonM CrestonM wrote:

I've heard that theory, and I'll admit I don't know a lot about steamships, but I've often wondered even if they were burning so much coal, couldn't they still keep the reciprocating engines slowed down and just vent excess steam? 


Dmiller is spot on...  it's not doing much work, it'd just be making lots of noise...

But also... the steamship's system was a CLOSED LOOP... steam went through the quad-expansion engines, THEN through the turbine, then through ships's dynamos, refrigeration system, cabin heating, and other functions, and condensed as it cooled... finally returning to the boiler feed nurse tank.  This did several things- first, it made absolute greatest use of all fuel energy, next, it provided universal power source for everything... and finally, eliminated the problem of desalination, and RAISING THE TEMPERATURE of feed-water.  If they desalinated and boiled seawater, it'd have to start at about 28F, and be raised to 350F to be ready for propulsion.  Condensing and recovering water meant that it was returning to the water feed tank at about 100F... and it was CLEAN (no salt). 

Them guys a hundred'n something years ago... they were smart.  Mebbie not good at dodging an iceberg, but if they had radar like we do now, it'd be a different story.  If they had genuine steel and arc welding technology (like what was used in the Hornet), it would've bounced off, with a really bad dent down the belly, and been in New York by the afternoon.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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