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Ken in Texas 
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Henderson, TX
Points: 5919
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 Topic: LP Gas Furnace Quit
Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 9:09am |
I have a well insulated Upstairs Guest room in my Barn. Wife turned up the heat for a visiting friend and no fire. Tried bugging out the problem myself. Called a local Heat and AC Service to get a honest diagnosis. A $80 Service Call. All he did is do like I did. Tried 3 times to make the burners work. Took pictures of the suspect defective Gas Valve and left saying the office would call and let me know if a replacement valve was available locally and the cost. Here is where I made a big mistake. Trusting this company to be HONEST. They said they Could get the part on Black Friday and I Could fix the furnace my self for just $580. What? I went on line with The make (Goodman) and model of the unit and the brand (White Rogers) of the Gas Valve. The most expensive exact replacement valve "NEW" was $98 Free shipping. Cheap used Valves matching Photos of my old valve, $35 with a one year replacement warrantee . The secretary asked why I did not pay up front for the 10 minute Service Call. I said I would but I needed a invoice. The service man just up and left never mentioning the Service Charge. For a furnace so little used why even fix it. It is quite comfortable in the room right now heated with just a small electric heater. These people who think my primary mode of transportation is a Tricycle need to wake up , act right and get a life.
Edited by Ken in Texas - 22 Nov 2018 at 9:16am
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Hubert (Ga)engine7
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Jackson Cnty,GA
Points: 6128
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 10:01am |
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Can't stand the rip off companies like that. I always try to see who my friends and neighbors recommend if I don't already have a repair service that I use for a particular piece of equipment. Another thing that bugs me is for someone to promise they will be there in the morning and not show up for 2 or 4 days. If you are too busy just tell me up front, if an emergency comes up call me and let me know. Until all the electronics came out I worked an a few furnaces and most of the gas valves, ignitors, fan switches and motors, etc. were common across brand lines and I could go to the local supplier and get what I needed. The service call charge should have been stated up front and then invoiced.
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Just an old country boy saved by the grace of God.
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chaskaduo
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Joined: 26 Nov 2016
Location: Twin Cities
Points: 5203
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 10:02am |
These companies think everybody is as dumb as they look. I hate it when I have to break down and call for service, as I know I'm in for a %$@^&^%^$.
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1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
Points: 21502
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 11:39am |
hahaha 'honest' and 'HVAC' can't be used in the same sentence..at least not that I've seen. that being said I know TWO honest service guys,both self employed. as for the furnace not coming on... need to know pilot light or ignitor control ? f there's a pilot flame burning at least you have gas... HSI ( Hot Surface Ignitors) are designed to fail and here's TWO versions, so you NEED the correct one. About $25 here, I buy 2 at a time. Silly thing..the DOOR switch ! It cuts off power to the furnace when you take off the 'blower access' door. Looks like a big white plunger. I eliminated mine(they get dirty, stay open , no power, brr. Friend was going to be charged $1,000+ for a service call to install a fan, I said check the switch, whack,whack, bend tin, try again, woosh...heat ! Wiring diagram is always on the blower panel, easy to follow. Thermostat woes... measure across RH and W terminals with stat 'off', you should get 24-30 volts AC, if not NO power to furnace. If yes, jumper across at furnace terminals. depending on the 'control module', there'll be a 30-60 second delay, then a 'click'( gas valve), then a woosh, fire ! Most will try 3 times then 'reset'. Write dowen the make/modol of the module, go online , get the instruction sheet. Most will have 'how to test' info. Do same for furnace. HiEFF ones have a 'ventor blower motor' that has to spin BEFORE sparking the gas, also there's a pressure switch(silver can with hose and wires) that's use to confirm ventor is spinning, to exhust gases...) I did remote energy control systems 3 decades ago...horror stories from 'service companies' lke 3 sets of blk-wht wires to hookup ONE stat...sigh Jay
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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chaskaduo
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Joined: 26 Nov 2016
Location: Twin Cities
Points: 5203
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 12:46pm |
Jay I'm copying your post and filing it in my home repairs folder, as I'm sure others are too. Thanks
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1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
Points: 21502
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 2:56pm |
hope it helps you get warm... other diddy.. remove blower door and inspect the ignitor ( white ceramic module) that heats up orange hot. I use compressed air to blow all the crap away from it. If ANY metal bits( like heat exchanger rust ) lands on top of it...poof... it'll bust in too next time power to it is applied...that's why I keep a spare hanging on the wall next to furnace. ALSO keep a box of bandaids there as well...I SWEAR there's a guy on the assyline that sharpens alll the tin just before it leaves the plant !! 
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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chaskaduo
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Joined: 26 Nov 2016
Location: Twin Cities
Points: 5203
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 3:16pm |
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Copied also, and also a thanks to Ken for sharing his story.
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1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
Points: 21502
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 3:41pm |
re: I Could fix the furnace my self
Yikes, I'd love to have a tape of that conversation !
Up here you gotta be certified and a member of TSSA to LOOK at a furnace, let alone work on the gas valve. Also HVAC suppliers won't sell to JQPublic. They'd rather take a bum check from a TSSA guy than cash from me ! Whoever said you could remove/replace the gas valve would be 'on the hook' if/when your house blew up due to a loose connection(leaky gas...) Now while I'm not 'certified' to be a gas fitter , I spent years doing design/build/repair of natgas equipment and know the 'no bubbles,no troubles' rhyme.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Stan IL&TN
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Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Elvis Land
Points: 6730
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 4:21pm |
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It's bad when the homeowner knows more than the certified bone-a-died experts. When I had our system replaced they piped the condensate line into my pvc pipe that allows me to run my generator line from outside to inside my utility room. It's just a 4" pvc pipe that has a screw in cap on both ends. They did a fine job cutting a hole into the cap and poking the line into it. They next used a bypass damper so that when the smaller zone called for heat it would relieve the excess pressure created by trying to force too much pressure into a smaller zone. Idiots didn't read the directions like I did and had to point it out to them that this system it is not needed. After a Couple of weeks I found that the vent pipe was venting out the fumes outside just below the fresh air intake to the furnace which is a no-no. I think I should have been hired as their supervisor.
Edited by Stan IL&TN - 22 Nov 2018 at 4:22pm
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1957 WD45 dad's first AC
1968 one-seventy
1956 F40 Ferguson
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chaskaduo
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Joined: 26 Nov 2016
Location: Twin Cities
Points: 5203
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 4:22pm |
"A guys gotta know his limits" as Callahan would say. 
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1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp
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john(MI)
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: SE MI
Points: 9263
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 6:15pm |
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A couple things always on my old lp unit. The igniter and the flame sensor. The flame sensor could usually get fixed with a piece of copy paper. I kept spares. I also watched the lights on the control board. They indicate what the fault probably is. I also had one of the sensor in the safety chain go bad, not too difficult to figure out which one was the culprit. The worst problem I had was the motor. It came on and ran, but I kept getting a sensor error. Scratched my head on that one for a while until it dawned on me, the fan wasn't turning fast enough! Easy fix, but frustrating.
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D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446
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DaveKamp
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5642
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 8:44pm |
With all the intricate complexities of furnaces, they're actually not that difficult to troubleshoot and fix, if you understand the basic safety principles they've built them around.
Nine times out of ten, there's a circuit board in there with diagnostic LED, and on the panel, there's a truth-table that identifies what that flashing code means, and if you do a web search, you'll find a real-world explanation of what the board says.
The ignitor, and the flame sensor are typically the first things in line of a 'no ignition' sequence. The ignitor, being in series with the gas valve, and the gas valve, being shunted around a resistor... makes a 'safety circuit' that is igniter current sensitive... meaning, when the gas valve's circuit is energized, the ignitor must carry enough current to pull in the gas valve. Ignitor is a piece of nichrome steel with phosphorus coating, and when you push current through it, it gets white hot... enough to autoignite the fuel gas.
When the phosphorus burns off (eventually), the nichrome steel will corrode away, and cause series resistance to be too high to pull in that gas valve, and thus, you'll get no burn.
The giveaway, is that the ignitor glows orange or red, not white hot. Change it, and problem solved.
If it gets past this point (ignites, then goes out), the next is flame sensor... and a bad sensor (they die with age) or a dirty heat exchanger... will prevent the flame from lighting the whole burner, and the flame sensor is usually at the 'far end'...
The 'Flame Rollout" failure means that temperature of the heat exchanger has gotten too high... typically, having a plugged furnace filter, or a dragging blower motor, but also, having the dampers of your furnace all set too 'closed'... will prevent the blower from running enough cool air over the heat exchanger to keep it below critical (rollout) temp.
For furnaces that are high-efficiency, the air intake and exhaust path needs to be unobstructed. There's a differential-pressure switch (a pair of diaphrams) with hoses connecting to inlet and outlet, and there must be ENOUGH pressure difference between inlet and outlet, but not TOO MUCH... in order for the system to be satisifed that it's safe to attempt to burn. If your ignitor isn't glowing in the first place (and you don't hear the 'CLICK' of the ignitor relay, then you probably have a restricted intake or exhaust path. Check for mouse-nest in exhaust and intake...
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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DaveKamp
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5642
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 8:45pm |
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Oh, and follow JAY's advice- don't buy an ignitor- buy TWO... one to replace, and one to place in a box on top of the unit, for the Sunday holiday in a -30F blizzard. Get a flame sensor, and a few extra filters, too!
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
Points: 21502
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 9:09pm |
My garage furnace's ignitor is ALSO the flame sensor !! Some 'genius' decided if you dump a lot of power into a resistor,it'll heat up flaming red hot and ignite gas THEN when it cools down , it becomes the 'flame sensor'( actually it's a 'heat sensor'). So one part does double duty, cheaper to make and guarrenteed to fail, so 'they' make lotsa money on service calls. I think my furnace is about 20 years old, gone through 3 ignitors, 1 control board and a gas valve. A bum control board took out the valve. My house furnace is an old Megasave unit, installed in 1986. still about 94% efficient. New stuff ain't built to last, I see a LOT of them in the scrapyard maybe 5-8 years young. One day I'll add remote control to the garage unit to get it warm before I walk to it... yeah, I'm betting I can do that BEFORE the rest of the roof get done... Jay
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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JohnCO
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Niwot Colo
Points: 8992
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 11:42pm |
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Jay, are you taking bets on when the roof gets done? I'm speculating it will be sometime next summer.
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"If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer"
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steve(ill)
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 77889
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Posted: 23 Nov 2018 at 9:06am |
Ken, as the guys said, usually the "VALVE" is not the biggest problem. You have to follow the sequence of evens to see at what step the process stops. If you have a newer high efficiency furnace ( twp PVC pipes on air and exhause) then "normally"... -the purge fan runs for 10 seconds to push any fumes out of the chamber -there is a differential pressure switch that monitors the purge air flow. If the pressure is too low, it assumes the discharge pipe is plugged and shuts the system off at this point. -the ignitor gets hot and glows . not getting hot stops the process here. -the gas valve opens and flows some gas over the ignitor and furnace lights off -the thermo sensor gets hot to tell you the furnace lit... if the fire goes out after 10-20 seconds it means the thermo sensor is bad and not telling the gas to keep flowing -after the fire burns for about 30 seconds, the blower starts and moves air thru the house.
Edited by steve(ill) - 23 Nov 2018 at 9:09am
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Coke-in-MN
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Location: Afton MN
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Posted: 24 Nov 2018 at 9:00am |
Seems you got it wrong on how to keep warm . [TUBE]BWpYQjuJ0u0[/TUBE]
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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DMiller
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
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Posted: 24 Nov 2018 at 9:50am |
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We had the same style ignitor detector in a furnace at our first house after married, kept one new one available after the second one failed, set up with the furnace guy we used to come in and service/inspect the furnace every fall and REPLACE that little POS every inspection.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 25 Nov 2018 at 9:04am |
Preventative replacement isn't a 'bad' idea... but it's a little extreme IMO. Mine go for 5-6 years between failures... there's two sitting in sealed plastic boxes (along with flame sensor, and a pair of thermocouples for the water heater) atop my air plenum...
Furnaces are kinda like boating... they sit idle for a long time, and when you take them out of storage, that idle time has an impact on performance that can come back to bite you if you're not prepared.
Many people ignore their furnace... they change the filter, but don't bother taking a shop-vac and brush to the blower housing to clean out the dust. Most people won't disassemble a heat exchanger to clean it, either... and with a modern high-efficiency, that's a more complex task... but fortunately, houses are substantially cleaner now than they used to be. I know some people, though, that don't even realize there's a FILTER in that furnace... I'm frequently amazed that theirs run at ALL... (see Flame Rollout Error).
I always force my furnace to kick on in July, August, and September, for about 20 minutes. that helps counteract the condensation which accumulates as a result of the cooling cycle being on all that time. I'm inclined to think that it helps the sensors last longer, too, because I've gone through many less since doing so, but I haven't made a doctoral study of it.
Either way, exercising the furnace up during warm days of September and October makes sure that if there's something wrong, you find out about it before the cold snap hits, and the HVAC guys are all swamped.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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