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theropod 
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Joined: 28 Sep 2017
Location: Arkansas USA
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 Topic: Indy car type starter?
Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 11:01pm |
Would a starter, similar to those used to start Indy cars, with a directional clutch, be possible for older tractors like my 38 B? Seems like it would be a fairly simple matter to build one, or modify a geared starter, to serve in this manner. I’m just getting too long in the tooth to crank that handle. The directional clutch could be something like the over run clutch for the PTO on my Yanmar.
Just thinking so don’t roast me too bad if it’s a silly idea.
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DougS
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Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Location: Iowa
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Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 6:00am |
It's not really a silly idea, but consider other issues. If it spins the engine too fast and you have a magneto there might be issues with the impulse not kicking in. Coupling it to the tractor could be "fun." No doubt it would be expensive. You'd almost be able to buy another C with an electric start for what this would cost. You may even be able to trade your C for another at even less cost.
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
Points: 25254
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Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 6:04am |
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Yes, it is 'possible' BUT it'd be a lot cheaper and easier to just add a starter where AC put them.If no hole( I assume this)..find another B with a 'holey' block and 'upgrade'.
It'd cost a LOT to finally get a working Indy car starter working. If you began with a 12 volt starter you NEED the ring gear for speed reduction,battery, etc. The one way clutch _might_ be the easiest part to deal with. Oh yeah you'll need a wagon to haul it around(100-200#) AND it has to be on level ground to line up or BAD things will happen.
It could be an interesting Winter project but $$$ and time !! While I like challenges, life's too short for this project ,I'd go with the tried and proven A-C way .
Jay
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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CrestonM
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Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Location: Oklahoma
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Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 6:47am |
I agree, A-C way might be best. You would just need a newer torque tube I'd think, and maybe flywheel. Seems someone told me once a hand crank B has a bigger flywheel than a electric start B. Also have to add the ring gear.
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corbinstein
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Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Location: Oklahoma
Points: 796
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Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 7:57am |
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cheaper to change out the torque tube i would think.
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Bull
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Joined: 28 Sep 2010
Location: Lamar, Missouri
Points: 589
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Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 8:31am |
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I saw a setup that a 90 year old man made to crank. He took an old garden tiller, turned it upside down,removed the tines and attached an adapter to the crank receptacle. It was powered by 110 volt motor. He moved it from one tractor to another with ease. It could be done with 12 motor and battery to be more portable. The tiller gear reduction and pulley setup made the crank speed about right..
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WD45 Diesel, RC,CA,IB, B, G, 616, Early B-10, D-10, Terra Tiger, 95G spreader, SC blade
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theropod
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Joined: 28 Sep 2017
Location: Arkansas USA
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Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 1:16pm |
 Bull wrote:
I saw a setup that a 90 year old man made to crank. He took an old garden tiller, turned it upside down,removed the tines and attached an adapter to the crank receptacle. It was powered by 110 volt motor. He moved it from one tractor to another with ease. It could be done with 12 motor and battery to be more portable. The tiller gear reduction and pulley setup made the crank speed about right.. |
I have a Honda 5 HP gas engine I think would serve as a prime mover for such a setup. A pony engine for a B! That little motor isn’t being used near enough and runs like a clock. I use it as a backup to the Kubota EL-300 which is a backup for our off grid power for when the sun doesn’t shine or the wind doesn’t blow for several days. The directional clutch and stepdown gearing shouldn’t be all that hard to rig up. Making a bracket to hold the setup, and still be easily removed, presents a problem though. Maybe driving the PTO?
Even though my Father-in-law has the torque tube, and ring geared flywheel, for the B I am highly reluctant to make the switch over. The antique quality of the old machine would be lost, and if I sell it someone else might want that hand crank. I just have physical issues which really limit my ability to spin the engine with enough umph to do the job. Honestly the inherent danger has me buffaloed as well. Too many broken bones already, with a left wrist that looks like a road kill snake!
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HoughMade
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Joined: 22 Sep 2017
Location: Valparaiso, IN
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Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 1:58pm |
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Park at the top of a hill, facing down.
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1951 B
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
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Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 2:57pm |
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According to Steiner's a B has 14 tooth starter, 90 tooth ring gear... so a 6.4 to 1 reduction. You can buy 6:1 reducers for Hondas ,used in motar mixers for about 600 Canucks... Maybe a PTO style overrunning clutch (?) to connect to PTO backwards ??
The one HUGE problem wth that setup is that you cannot use the PTO for anything else as your 'pony starter system' is permanent... It could be put up front to the original hand crank gizmo.... Sigh ,it is a LOT of work, let alone cost.
If you bought another B WITH starter it might actually be CHEAPER in both time and money.
Just thinking of options for you.
Personally, an 'upgraded' B would have MORE value, especally to us older,'wiser' guys who do NOT want to hand crank tractors anymore....
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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theropod
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Location: Arkansas USA
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Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 3:18pm |
OK, the wife and I are headed down to the in laws in a couple weeks and I will look the extra torque tube and flywheel over. They live on the opposite corner of Arkansas from us or I would have already whizzed down there. Basically he has a whole other B, but that block froze and cracked, and the head is missing. If those parts aren’t beyond hope I will probably make the switch. Then I will have to find a starter, which isn’t going to be cheap, and I will have to fabricate a mount and hang an alternator, or jump start it. I take it the clutch doesn’t care which flywheel is used. I really shouldn’t really concern myself with selling the tractor as I have no plans to do so.
Edit to add: I probably should just collect all the parts and see what can be saved and sell what I don’t need to help offset the costs of bringing the B I am working on back from the dead.
Edited by theropod - 23 Oct 2017 at 3:21pm
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Steve in NJ
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 4:05pm |
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B Starter torque tubes you can find cheap. I have two left. I sell em' for $50. bucks plus the shipping. If your FIL has another B with a Starter Torque tube, your in! If you need a Starter motor, and an Alternator bracket, I can help ya with those also. Visit our website and you can see what we offer....
Steve@B&B
bb-customcircuits.com
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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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theropod
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Joined: 28 Sep 2017
Location: Arkansas USA
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Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 6:42pm |
Steve in NJ wrote:
B Starter torque tubes you can find cheap. I have two left. I sell em' for $50. bucks plus the shipping. If your FIL has another B with a Starter Torque tube, your in! If you need a Starter motor, and an Alternator bracket, I can help ya with those also. Visit our website and you can see what we offer....
Steve@B&B
bb-customcircuits.com
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Texted him and asked about the flywheel if it had the drive gear an the whole flywheel is missing. Thinks he might have given it away in the 60’s. I can get one with the ring gear with a clutch off ebay, so the dream isn’t dead just yet. Yes a starter will be required!
I am going to drive my old truck down to their place and collect up all the extra parts anyway. There has to be salvageable goodies amongst the junk. Since I have discovered electrolysis I no longer fear rust, and it is amazing how well it works.
I have your info on file, Steve. That old mag is headed your way soon. The alternator bracket sounds like just the ticket. Being on a fixed income, and not rushed, I want to attack this restoration with sound planning instead of just throwing money at the problems. Yeah it could speed all this up and get the tractor humming in short order with fat stacks, but I am not on a schedule.
I need to decide if rolling is more important than than a starter, and if starting is going to require a new carb. I discovered a crack in the float segment where the lower mix jet screws into the body, and I fear it is the issue behind short run times before dying. I fear water got in and this crack is a freeze induced problem. The carb may have cracks in vital areas I cannot detect. A new replacement carb will not be cheap, and will probably require tweaking to make work. Glad I bought the rebuild kit!
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TMiller/NC
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Lenoir, NC
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Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 8:22pm |
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I used a Milwaukee 1/2" drill with a shaft and cross pin to fit the crank pulley, to spin my '39 B. after overhaul. Was pretty hard to spin over so used it to crank it for a while.
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theropod
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Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 5:59am |
TMiller/NC wrote:
I used a Milwaukee 1/2" drill with a shaft and cross pin to fit the crank pulley, to spin my '39 B. after overhaul. Was pretty hard to spin over so used it to crank it for a while.
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Excellent idea. I would still worry about kickback though. I have had a big drill bind up and that was no fun.
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DougS
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Location: Iowa
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Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 6:04am |
You can get a nasty kickback on that drill just as you can get kickback on a hand crank. I'd have safety concerns if the tool wasn't used for what it was designed.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 6:06am |
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I've seen pictures of big drills turning stuff and ALL the smart guys have chains or bars attached to the drill to prevent MAJOR,SERIOUS, PERMANENT damage to their hands,wrist,arms, etc.
Knowing how popular the B was/is , I'm confident ALL the bits and piece you need can be found, hopefully locally to your area. I'd check out Craigslist, local small papers, put in free ads if possible asking for B parts or whole tractors. Non-running ones can be had for a bit above scrap value. Talk nice, see what happens.
Jay
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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