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WD backfiring |
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ThatXJGuy ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Apr 2019 Location: Wyoming Points: 7 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 16 Apr 2019 at 10:17pm |
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So I have a WD that I just got running. I got it a couple years ago from a friend but I'm guessing this is the first time it's ran in several decades. Anyway, the carb is fresh, the head is fresh. I didn't think I could get the tank satisfactorily clean, and the sediment bowl was too messed up to use so I put a filter and pump on it at least temporarily.
The thing starts great hand cranked, idles smoothly and revs pretty decent but maybe a bit sluggish, and when it's under load, it backfires out the intake. As it warms up it gets worse and worse till I have to shut it down. The backfiring seems rhythmic and the power cuts with it resulting in jerky motion. I have three ideas of what could be causing it but would love some input from you experts if I can get it. The intake/exhaust manifold is in pretty rough shape and I wonder if a crack in it could be opening with heat and either just creating a vacuum leak or possibly allowing exhaust gas to ignite the intake fuel/air mix. Another possibility is ignition issues. It has the magneto system and I don't know what should or should not be happening in there as far as advance under load or with speed or what. Is there something that could be going on in there to cause this? It seems as if the system works great at least as far as the impulse stuff goes. It usually fires in about one rotation of the hand crank and I haven't had a kickback or anything. Third guess of mine is carb adjustment but other than the idle speed screw and idle mix screw I don't know of any other adjustments to make. It's the zenithh carb without the main jet adjustment on the bottom. I have been reading a bit but this is my first post so here goes nothing! Thanks in advance! Edited by ThatXJGuy - 16 Apr 2019 at 10:19pm |
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ThatXJGuy ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Apr 2019 Location: Wyoming Points: 7 |
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Maybe I should mention also that there's no thermostat in it at the moment but I have one on the way with a new manifold. I have been dumping the coolant system and refilling with water about every time I run it, trying to flush it clean by the time my thermostat shows up. It came out like mud the first time.
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JC-WI ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: wisconsin Points: 34307 |
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Well, the harder you pull it, the more it will backfire through the intake...? Dirty plugs filled with carbon does that real good, the harder it works the hotter the carbon gets and then it starts pre igniting the fuel. Also the harder the tractor pulls, the more combustion pressure is created and harder for the spark to fire... thus it the spark might jump the easiest resistance and fire a different plug be it poor ignition wires or bad cap/rotor. Are you running solid core wire or carbon core wire? Never run resistor plugs or carbon core wires on a magneto.
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
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Lonn ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29805 |
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I hope this isn't your particular problem but I ran into a WD that backfired as it warmed up. The warmer it got the worse it got. Eventually tore it down and found that two of the wrist pins were rubbing against the sleeves as the rods and pins were not installed correct. As the pins got hotter while scoring the sleeves they would pre detonate the gasoline and cause the backfire through the intake. Full disclosure. It was my very first overhaul back when I was a kid just out of high school and done without a proper manual. Lesson learned! Still have that WD done proper and painted up nice. |
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Wink I am a Russian Bot |
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WD45Diesel57 ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 Jul 2010 Location: Varna, Ont. Can Points: 646 |
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a warped or cracked manifold will cause rough running and backfiring
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1-B's, 2-C, 2-CA's,2-WF, 1-WC,1-G, 3-WD's, 2-WD45, 1-RC, 1-D17 Diesel, 1-D14, 2-D15,1-D17 row crop,1-D19 gas and All Crop 40,60,66,72,90 and 100
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Sugarmaker ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Jul 2013 Location: Albion PA Points: 8485 |
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That XJ Guy,
First welome! You have a problem that can and will be solved. For your first post its a good one. I dont think I have any clues that can help you trouble shoot the issue. I have been around these tractors for years and dont think I have heard that happen. Your explanation seems good and clear. Maybe other things you may have changed during the refurb? I am not a engine expert at all. I assume the valves are adjusted per the book? You just had the head done so it should not be the issue. Seems as mentioned a cylinder is firing when its not supposed to? Allowing a intake valve to be open when it is firing? It will be interesting to understand and learn about this. Not sure if it would start easy but did you double check the firing order and plug wire locations. That's the best I can do today!:) Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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savedallis1953 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 03 Jan 2018 Location: Florida Points: 136 |
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Sounds like it is pulling air from around the intake. Easy fix.
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1953 WD, 1953 WD, WD engine with WD-45 crankshaft.
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Bill_MN ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Sioux Falls, SD Points: 1471 |
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Bad manifolds seem to cause many of the more unusual running issues depending on where bad spot is.
Edited by Bill_MN - 17 Apr 2019 at 8:40pm |
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1951 WD #78283, 1918 Case 28x50 Thresher #76738, Case Centennial B 2x16 Plow
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MACK ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 17 Nov 2009 Points: 7664 |
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Lean on fuel. MACK
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JC-WI ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: wisconsin Points: 34307 |
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How about valve clearances? to tight? Did you refurb the valve train?
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
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Ted J ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Jul 2010 Location: La Crosse, WI Points: 18943 |
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Other causes; bad/worn gears on mag., bad condenser, bad plugs, as you've stated, intake and exhaust, wiring (creates an open when it gets hot).
I myself doubt it is fuel related because it would get bad and stay that way, hot, warm or cold. BUT, you could have a problem with gas hose...?? Do you have steel gas line? or is part of it rubber/plastic? That could be a cause and I would get rid of any rubber or plastic. It's bad on carbs too. Change ONE THING AT A TIME and try it out. They put the old part back in and change the next thing. Do the simple little things first and work your way forward. If new plugs (them I'd leave in, don't put the old ones back in)(But I'd also get them from Steve in NJ) don't help, try new plug wires. Get the exhaust leaks fixed. Air cleaner clean? It's a mesh that gets clogged with old oil and dirt/grease and gets plugged easily. If none of that works, I'd suggest sending the Mag to one of the guys on here to have it done up good. (somebody on here was just selling rebuilds for cheap - check the classifieds) Let us know as you go along and we'll keep picking our brains for you.... By the way, Welcome ![]() Edited by Ted J - 18 Apr 2019 at 10:30pm |
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"Allis-Express"
19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17 |
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ThatXJGuy ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Apr 2019 Location: Wyoming Points: 7 |
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Well thank you all for the replies!
An update: I got my new manifold, thermostat, and water pump installed, it definitely feels like it's running better and has more power, but the backfiring hasn't changed. I'm guessing that the manifold was an issue but not the only one. I didn't know about the solid plug wire rule and did have the soft black cored wires. I changed them out just a few minutes ago with some metal cored ones and it doesn't do any different. They're actually a home built set I just made and they look better being the right lengths for what that's worth! One question I have for you guys is about the throttle. Is all the way upon the handle(closed) supposed to kill the motor? I know the linkage runs through the ignition system for governing purposes I assume. I'm sure a book could answer some of these questions, I need to get on that. It seems like the throttle on the carb never closes all the way unless the lever is all the way up and the motor immediately dies which I figured was related to the ignition but maybe it's that my carb isn't adjusted to be able to idle. Another question that I have that could be answered by the book is: is there a way to check what the mag system or governor is doing as far as spark advance with different rpms and load? I'm not even sure what it's supposed to be doing so I would need to start there. If I figure out how to post a video on here I'd love to. Maybe seeing what it's doing would help you guys diagnose. Thanks again for the help guys! This old stuff just makes my day. I got a chance today to run my 1940s Cat 12 grader, my '53 IH 5 ton military truck and my WD so it's been a good one. ![]() Edited by ThatXJGuy - 27 Apr 2019 at 8:52pm |
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ThatXJGuy ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Apr 2019 Location: Wyoming Points: 7 |
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Oh, and to be more specific about the valves and head, it's got new valves, new seats on the ones that were removeable which I'm sure were the exhaust (it's been a year or two since then). I believe that they're all adjusted right, I went through them several times and lastly while it was hot which is what I think is the right way to go. Every time I checked them it seemed like several were in need of further adjustment but it's hard to say. The last time I did them I remember thinking: "they may not be exactly perfect but I'm confident that none of them are too tight" which is the safe way to be right? Too much lash would be inefficient, not enough is damaging?
Edited by ThatXJGuy - 27 Apr 2019 at 8:59pm |
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Ed (Ont) ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 08 Nov 2009 Location: New Lowell, Ont Points: 1488 |
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Check your coil. Mine was acting the same. I replaced coil and then it worked great.
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Ed (Ont) ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 08 Nov 2009 Location: New Lowell, Ont Points: 1488 |
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Mine would get worse as engine got hotter. Took coil off and could actually see that coil was cracked on the back of it. Worked really well when the coil was replaced!!!!
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Dnoym N. S. Can. ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 03 Oct 2009 Points: 544 |
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i`am with MACK on this one anytime it backfires out the intake. i think not getting enoft gas did you try to give it some choke to see if that help B:-) Dnoym
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Pete from IL ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 29 Dec 2009 Location: Beecher IL. Points: 311 |
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To me it sounds like the valve clearance was not set right. Set each cylinder clearance with the piston on top dead center on compression stroke. Maybe you know that? Or a valve sticking.
You can set the ignition timing with a timing light.
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Pete from IL ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 29 Dec 2009 Location: Beecher IL. Points: 311 |
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Ed may have something there with a coil issue. You will get it. Let us know what it turns out to be.
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Ed (Ont) ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 08 Nov 2009 Location: New Lowell, Ont Points: 1488 |
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I reread your post again and see you have a magneto so forget the coil theory. LOL. I'll have to read more carefully.
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ThatXJGuy ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Apr 2019 Location: Wyoming Points: 7 |
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I was wondering if that were the case or if you were talking about the coil inside the magneto. I didn't know if they could crack or whatever. |
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Gary Burnett ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Virginia Points: 3078 |
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Intake valves too tight common mistake on old tractor motors,I've seen it often just got thru getting an Oliver 66 running smooth because of too tight adjusted valves.I like valves on old low RPM tractor motors to be adjusted a little on the loose side.
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CTuckerNWIL ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: NW Illinois Points: 22825 |
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Yes, the coils in the mag can and do cause problems. Specially the originals in the FMJ mags that get cracks or melt away the insulation. |
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
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