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TomYaz 
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 Topic: All-Crop re-assembly advice
Posted: 24 May 2011 at 2:03pm |
Question for you guys who have sheet metal/welding experience...
On the all-crops, a lot of the sheet metal was fastened to the frame via solid rivets.
When putting on the new skin, dont want to use solid rivets for all the time it would take to do that. I think pop rivets wouldnt hold up to the vibrations...Bolts would not work in a lot of places because the one side surface needs to be smooth with no bolt heads..
My fab man will use the following technique....the frame has a hole in it, where the rivet went. Sheet metal behind it is solid. He puts a blob of weld in that hole to fuse the metals...kinda like a primitive spot welding..Seems to work where already used, but how do you think that would hold up? He does welding for a living so I assume he knows what he is doing, but just like ot hear other opinions
Edited by TomYaz - 24 May 2011 at 2:03pm
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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John (C-IL)
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Posted: 24 May 2011 at 2:07pm |
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Just a thought, how about the bolts that they use to fasten sickle sections on now?
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TomYaz
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Posted: 24 May 2011 at 2:23pm |
 John (C-IL) wrote:
Just a thought, how about the bolts that they use to fasten sickle sections on now? |
Still got heads on them....dont want heads on the other side projecting out.
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FredW
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Posted: 24 May 2011 at 2:36pm |
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Weld will work but I think in the long term welds will crack and break away from angle or whatever. Probably wont see the long term, I am thinking ten fifteen years. Fred
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Rfdeere
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Posted: 24 May 2011 at 3:06pm |
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Tom, I know this isn't what you want to hear, even though the solid rivets probably will take longer, they are probably the best option. I'm sure that is why Allis used them in the first place. Welding, along with the problems already mentioned, make it pretty hard to replace parts also.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 24 May 2011 at 3:16pm |
Rfdeere wrote:
Tom, I know this isn't what you want to hear, even though the solid rivets probably will take longer, they are probably the best option. I'm sure that is why Allis used them in the first place. Welding, along with the problems already mentioned, make it pretty hard to replace parts also. |
I can live with 10-15 years...may still put a few bolts to anchor the part where I can get away with it.
As for replacing the part..we ground off the rivet head to get the metal seperated. Would do the same with these weld "heads"...its a wash IMO...
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BobHnwO
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Posted: 24 May 2011 at 3:37pm |
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How many rivets you need to do?
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Why do today what you can put off til tomorrow.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 24 May 2011 at 4:30pm |
BobHnwO wrote:
How many rivets you need to do? |
A LOT!
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John WV
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Posted: 24 May 2011 at 4:36pm |
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carriage bolts,(some call them stove bolts) they are smooth round heads
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dave63
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Posted: 24 May 2011 at 5:09pm |
The original enginers did not have the welding technolagy that we have today. There is nothing wrong with your fab guys procedure in fact it will last longer then the original. Replaceing or reworking is not a problem i have used a small hole saw to cut out mistakes and rewelded and you can't tell that it was done.
Unless the correct police give you a big fine it will cost less.
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The universal answer to all questions is yes, how much do you want to spend?
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Ryan Renko
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Posted: 24 May 2011 at 7:30pm |
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I'm not a expert Tom but I really dont like the spot welding idea in the rivot hole. AllCrops are not the most balanced machines and with the shaking and bouncing around in a rough field I think the welds would break in time. Whats the answer, I'm still thinkin!! Ryan
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TomYaz
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 7:20am |
Yep sounds like welding is not the way to go...I will try to go with bolts..hopefully all blots wont being up their own issues....
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Matt MN
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 7:42am |
I have a friend that is a body man, He has been using the 3M brand "Duramix" and "Automix" panel bonding adhesive. He said this stuff sets up really nice and holds stronger than a conventional weld.
Just a thought.
http://www.tcpglobal.com/3m/duramix.aspx
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Unless your are the lead horse the scenery never changes!!
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TomYaz
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 7:45am |
[QUOTE=Matt MN]I have a friend that is a body man, He has been using the 3M brand "Duramix" and "Automix" panel bonding adhesive. He said this stuff sets up really nice and holds stronger than a conventional weld. Just a thought. http://www.tcpglobal.com/3m/duramix.aspx[/QUOTE]
Might be as good as they claim but I just dont have warm fuzzies giving a customer a combine glued together....But might be useful in a combination scheme (bolt/glue).
Also using it as a sealer against moisture could be useful. looks like it needs set-up time. Time is in short supply...maybe for another machine and more time.
Thanks for the tip!
Edited by TomYaz - 25 May 2011 at 7:47am
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Dusty MI
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 8:58am |
If the frame is thick enough, maybe self tapping bolts.
Dusty
Should have called them cap screws.
Edited by Dusty MI - 25 May 2011 at 9:01am
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BobHnwO
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 9:07am |
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I have used liquid nails adhesive to fasten metal to metal,have to use a chisel to get apart!
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Why do today what you can put off til tomorrow.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 9:45am |
BobHnwO wrote:
I have used liquid nails adhesive to fasten metal to metal,have to use a chisel to get apart! |
LOL! So much for "servicable"! Yep I think bolts will have to do..being able to unbolt the panels to service is a plus...One can already drop the concave on my rebuild because it is bolted instead of riveted...
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Rawleigh
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 10:18am |
Tom: Would these weld on threaded nut inserts work or do they stick out too far? http://www.mcmaster.com/#threaded-inserts/=cgj950Or flush mount captive nuts: http://www.mcmaster.com/#press-in-captive-nuts/=cgjbty
Edited by Rawleigh - 25 May 2011 at 10:23am
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TomYaz
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 10:23am |
Might work..but if I keep the bolt head on the inside I think I will be ok...
When are you picking up the scour kleen?
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Rawleigh
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 10:24am |
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I'm still working on that!
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TomYaz
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 10:26am |
All might have possibilities....but dont have the time to experiment...think Im going to stick with just plain old hex bolts...I think I can make them work after some additional thought...
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TomYaz
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 10:27am |
Rawleigh wrote:
I'm still working on that! |
2+ years I think! Your reminding of that FedEx commercial where two guys in a room trying to figure out how to ship a box!LOL!
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427435
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 10:35am |
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There's a reason that airplanes are riveted together. It allows flexing. The frame on an All-Crop isn't that robust. A welded connection will likely crack. You're putting lots of effort into the project already-----get an air riveter and a friend to help with the back-setter if necessary.
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Mark
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Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 10:59am |
427435 wrote:
There's a reason that airplanes are riveted together. It allows flexing. The frame on an All-Crop isn't that robust. A welded connection will likely crack. You're putting lots of effort into the project already-----get an air riveter and a friend to help with the back-setter if necessary. |
Well you guys have convinved me to not weld....but tell me why bolts would be bad..
A lot of $time$ and effort to rivet. I dont have no friends either LOL! At least any who would do this...
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427435
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 11:09am |
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Bolts would work also if you get a round head type. Get a Torx head so you can get some torque on them. There are also self-tapping Torx head bolts that might work well. A washer (or even a fender washer) under the head might not be a bad idea either.
Edited by 427435 - 25 May 2011 at 11:11am
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Mark
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Ryan Renko
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 11:32am |
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Great point 427435.
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acwdwcman
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Posted: 25 May 2011 at 12:09pm |
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Use bolts and weild the nut on so it doesn't vibrate off.
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wd with a freeman model 90 trip loader, wd45, 38 unstylled wc, b 10 garden tractor and 2-14 ac trip plow. grandpa has a 56 wd45. wd. allis chalmers snap coupler blade and 3 bottom snap coupler plow
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