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DaveKamp 
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 Topic: Repolarizing a generator...
Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 10:20am |
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Someone throw me a quick link here-
Just converted the D17 from 12v Positive to 12v Negative, got the Pertronix Ignitor and a new coil installed. I unhooked the generator's Alt and Batt terms, she fires and runs nice.
Now I gotta swap ammeter terminals and repolarize the alternator, then look into the regulator situation and see what it wants in order to regulate nicely.
Anyone got a really good how-to link for proper re-polarization? Gotta flash my generator and wire it to operate positive ground, and in all my work with generators, I've never flip-flopped polarity... (slap head) I'm sure it's simple...
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DSeries4
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Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 10:39am |
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It is simple. With everything hooked up (including battery), use a jumper wire to short out the BAT and GEN connections on the voltage regulator. Once you get a spark there, you are done! Just a quick strike (don't hold the wire on both!)
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 10:42am |
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That A terminal means Armature on a generator.
Gerald J.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 11:34am |
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Sorry, Gerald- you're right- I was in a hurry to get out the door and to the hospital- time to get in there and give the wife a few hours' escape while I sat with Nick. His appendectomy didn't quite go as-expected, they ended up having to make a fairly large incision, so he's still on-mend.
I'm sitting in here now, and doing some searching, and finding the dangdest lies I never knew... here's a few samples of ill knowledge and faulty logic:
1) The starter will start the engine backwards. Yeah, that's exactly what it did when I cranked it up this morning... not only have the laws of physics and EMF been violated (DC motors with field windings maintain direction regardless of polarity, when both motor field and armature windings remain the same), the Bendix is obviously screwed up, 'cause it engaged backwards. Right.
2) You can't tow a negative-ground tractor with positive-ground tractor with a chain, otherwise it'll short out. (yeah, sure...)
3) It's important for the world to realize that although a coil is labeled to have 'internal resistance', that it doesn't mean there's actually a resistor in there. (sheesh). Coils of wire have distributed capacitance, inductance, AND resistance. Doesn't matter how it gets there, or why...
4) It's critical to leave a positive-ground system as-is... otherwise it'll corrode. Uh-huh... sure... whatever.
5) Running positive ground yields hotter spark, so the engine runs better and gets better fuel economy. Glad I knew that... internal combustion requires a source of ignition, I didn't know that those fuel molecules actually cared which way the electrons flowed, as long as there was enough corona effect to light the gap... (where do they get this information).
6) An Old Timer told me... (ahhh...)... yeah, well, I certainly won't discount wisdom and experience, but when I was a little boy, an old timer told me if I touched it, I'd go blind. I'm over 40 and married, and so far, I ain't blind... mebbie it's 'cause I don't have a 'social disease'?
7) Need to change the coil, condenser, starter solenoid, generator, cig lighter, and anti-freeze to negative-ground stuff. {especially the anti-freeze... otherwise it'll freeze ABOVE +20f, rather than BELOW -20F}
8) I'll be more susceptible to being struck by lightning while out in the field. [actually, I'll be more likely to be attacked by a shark while running a sickle-mower in an Iowa farm field, than being struck by lightning as a direct result of switching battery polarity]
9) Keeps the tractor paint from bubbling off. {Have you seen my tractors? What paint? That's what the OIL is for!!!}
10) You'll get shocked if you try to run a flat-belt. {no, I'll probably get back-whipped by a 50' piece of leather belt. Belt static, yes- that's an issue. Look up Van De Graff generator- they're a riot... but I know how to handle static electricity, and it ain't gonna cause the battery to discharge.}
Where do they GET this crap??? Figured I share it for some laughs.
I've got it up and running nicely, the Pertronix does just what it says (not my first time with 'em, suffice to say), just gonna make it charge in the right direction, then see what I can do with the reg to make it actually regulate. Cheers!
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Tedin NE-OH
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Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 11:57am |
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The other one is if you put a battery on a concrete floor it will discharge. Not so!
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 12:37pm |
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1) Some recent car starters will turn the wrong direction if the polarity is swapped, because they have permanent magnet fields. Of course all the tons of electronics in the vehicle will also be instantly destroyed by the reversed polarity so there won't be ignition.
4) In the thirties engineers from different car companies argued starter system polarity on exactly the corrosion of grounds. My perception as an electrical engineer is that the corrosion example they considered was corrosion of water pipes passing near DC electric trolley or rail lines. The complicating factor is that which polarity is best for preserving the water lines depends on whether the water line is near or far from the power converter (on DC rail lines). And on the vehicle, no matter what the battery polarity, you have the frame positive at one connection and negative at the other, the two connections of concern being the battery ground cable and the starter case. If corrosion was ever a problem it probably was at the iron to iron connection from the starter case to the engine block or bell housing. Polarity choice isn't going to prevent corrosion there, just will change which hunk of iron looses metal the most.
5) There IS a preferred polarity at the plug. That's why we change the coil primary connection when changing battery polarity. Not that the engine won't run with the opposite plug polarity, just it may run a little better with the preferred direction. When you go to an electronic ignition system the increased voltage probably makes polarity a moot point. The voltage probably oscillates with both polarities at the plug only a microsecond or ten apart.
7) There's a chance though rarely considered that the core of the solenoid could have become magnetized to work slightly better on the old polarity. I loose more solenoids from rust on the plunger anyway, so I don't worry about that. And the contacts on an old solenoid will have a different burn and metal transfer pattern for opposite polarities. When I get a starter repaired and rebearing, I put on a new solenoid to save having to do it some time later.
Where the coil gets changed its amazing that the condenser can use the same value for old and new coil not being critical by voltage or specific coil.
9) Paint bubbles a lot when glyphosate or liquid fertilizer solutions get spilled on it from minor leaks from the fender mounted valve array.
In the old days, batteries in hard rubber vs plastic cases DID discharge on a damp basement floor because there was some current leakage through the rubber. Even the plastic cased battery will discharge when not connected if the top is not clean, but is covered with conductive dirt, and acid fumes condensed in that dirt make it more conductive. Probably more of the winter discharge comes from inside the battery, especially in the old days when the lead alloy was strengthened by adding antimony. Local action discharges the electrolyte. Modern batteries use calcium as the alloy that doesn't cause local action, but also makes for much weaker plates so the modern battery doesn't handle deep cycles, vibration, or neglect as well. Capacity goes down fast when plates break off the connecting bar.
Gerald J.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 3:06pm |
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Hi Gerald!
Yeah, there's some modern answers, but the amount of incredible garbage floating around, and actually believed, astounds me...
>>1) Some recent car starters will turn the wrong direction if the
polarity is swapped, because they have permanent magnet fields. Of
course all the tons of electronics in the vehicle will also be instantly
destroyed by the reversed polarity so there won't be ignition.
--Yep, and the starter bendix ain't gonna flip out either... but it won't make the engine start backwards...
> 4)
In the thirties engineers from different car companies argued starter
system polarity on exactly the corrosion of grounds. My perception as an
electrical engineer is that the corrosion example they considered was
corrosion of water pipes passing near DC electric trolley or rail lines.
The complicating factor is that which polarity is best for preserving
the water lines depends on whether the water line is near or far from
the power converter (on DC rail lines). And on the vehicle, no matter
what the battery polarity, you have the frame positive at one connection
and negative at the other, the two connections of concern being the
battery ground cable and the starter case. If corrosion was ever a
problem it probably was at the iron to iron connection from the starter
case to the engine block or bell housing. Polarity choice isn't going to
prevent corrosion there, just will change which hunk of iron looses
metal the most.
--Exactly. Our previous home was originally electrified by a 90vdc motor-generator unit that was fed 600v (nominal) from the electric railway that went from Muscatine to Clinton... actually written into the property abstract as a result of the utility easement... but corrosion on a tractor, sitting in a shed... the battery polarity will be somewhere below totally insignificant... mebbie only rivaled by stray salty sea air blowing up from Key West...
> 5) There IS a preferred polarity at the plug.
That's why we change the coil primary connection when changing battery
polarity. Not that the engine won't run with the opposite plug polarity,
just it may run a little better with the preferred direction. When you
go to an electronic ignition system the increased voltage probably makes
polarity a moot point. The voltage probably oscillates with both
polarities at the plug only a microsecond or ten apart.
-Yeah, the inductive reactance makes that coil 'ring' a little (which the condenser is supposed to dampen a smidge), but the bigger question, is whether the coil's secondary is directly grounded to the CASE, then grounded via the case clamp to block, or whether it's grounded to block via the - terminal through contact points. Both have been done, the latter, however, means that a problem at points/condenser can result in the HV component being pumped through the points (or in the case of an ignition trigger, the trigger's semiconductor)... but the notion that DC Ground on the PRIMARY side has a dramatic and critical effect on the secondary and spark such that it would be immediately noticeable to an operator... is idiotic.
>7)
There's a chance though rarely considered that the core of the solenoid
could have become magnetized to work slightly better on the old
polarity. I loose more solenoids from rust on the plunger anyway, so I
don't worry about that. And the contacts on an old solenoid will have a
different burn and metal transfer pattern for opposite polarities. When I
get a starter repaired and rebearing, I put on a new solenoid to save
having to do it some time later.
--Again, the solenoid isn't in some way 'predisposed' to polarity... after running it in the opposite direction, it'll just-as-easily become polarized by the other direction.
>>Where the coil gets changed its
amazing that the condenser can use the same value for old and new coil
not being critical by voltage or specific coil.
--I've found that more often than not, condensers manage to work when measurements and tests indicate they're too marginal to be suitable for further service, but the danged things keep running anyway. Guys that report everything okay by saying "Got a nice hot spark at the points" remind me how misunderstood battery-coil ignition principles are.
>9) Paint bubbles a
lot when glyphosate or liquid fertilizer solutions get spilled on it
from minor leaks from the fender mounted valve array.
--Considering the abbreviated preparation and painting these ol' girls got from the factory, and the years of wind, sand, grit, and cattle poop, I find it amazing that the paint stuck as well as it did. Suggesting that battery polarity is in any way responsible for increasing the longetivity of that darned paint is... well... horsecrap. A good coat of oil is guaranteed to have more impact.
>In the old
days, batteries in hard rubber vs plastic cases DID discharge on a damp
basement floor ...
--Earlier plastics and composites are nowhere near what we've got today, but in all cases, one can figure that someone who yanks a battery and shoves it in the corner, on a concrete floor, doesn't care about it enough to check state-of-charge, make sure the electrolyte levels are proper, etc., and of course, wouldn't think to properly scrub it, clean the posts, coat 'em with antioxidants, etc., and when it comes time to reinstall, they wouldn't do same for battery cables 'n stuff. Guys who know enough to care never have problems with batteries freezing, because they're always holding enough of a charge to not freeze in the first place.
Just can't believe how well bull-crap continues to float. Fortunately, my D17 is already equipped with negative-ground headlamps, and I stocked up on headlamp fluid when I changed 'em out last summer.
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Josh(NE)
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Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 3:48pm |
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Dumb ??? do you flash it while running or while off ?
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Allis Express
'65 190XT, 37 B, '72 170, '83 8030, and the IH 560 was a mistake
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 4:11pm |
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Flash it before you start the tractor or you might let the smoke out of something. Gerald I appreciate the bits and pieces that I can soak up from some of your comments but there hasn't been any "Local Action" around here for quite some time and as far as antimoney, I must have a lot around here because it seems to turn money into nothing as soon as it hits my hand.
Now if I could only come up with some antimatter to store in an electromagnetic field, I could build me a reactor that would put coal and oil out of use. LOL
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captaindana
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Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 4:23pm |
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Charlie your talk sounds like Spock lol :>
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 4:36pm |
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Closer to Scotty, Capn'. But I'm givin er all she's got capn'.
A new thought, if matter and anit-matter come in contact with each other the entire mass turns to pure energy. So my conundrum is, what are electromagnetic fields made of? Electrons flying around and electrons are part of the molecules that make up matter so how could you store anti-matter inside a bunch of electrons?
Sorry for all the stray thoughts Dave. I'll go look for a sight with some good info for you now.
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 4:40pm |
Dave, I didn't read all of this but maybe it will help. http://www.starautoelectric.com/page25.php
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 6:54pm |
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Heh Heh... most fellers I know, store all their anti-matter inside beer cans. When they need a little, they put down a few cans, and nothin' really matters anymore.
As for mixin' the two, the more anti-matter they drink, the less energy they have, so I'm thinkin' that mixing antimatter with matters is like foiling inclination with a recliner!
Tryin' to find an 'easy' way to get to that voltage reg without takin' 30 bolts off'a the side panel dangit... where's that wirin' diagram?
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 7:53pm |
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Antimony is an element. Latin name stibium, atomic number 51, atomic weight 121.75. That it wasn't the perfect alloying agent for lead was discovered in telephone central exchange bettery rooms when stibene gas was analyzed in the atmosphere. Stibene gas is antimony hydride and is intensely poisonous according to my Merck Chemical Index and was corroding exchange crossbar switches.
Gerald J.
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Scott(GA)
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Posted: 11 Apr 2011 at 10:26pm |
While on this subject...
I have a G that was converted (for some reason) from 6 Volt Positive Ground to 6 Volt Negative Ground.
First Question:
Is changing it back to 6 Volt Positive as simple as reversing the battery cables, changing the Ignition Coil leads and flashing the generator?
I've heard that switching back to Positive Ground might cause battery damage to the formally negative ground battery - is this true?
Last question...
Why in the world would this tractor have been switched from Postive Ground to Negative Ground?
Best regards,
Scott
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 11 Apr 2011 at 10:36pm |
Is changing it back to 6 Volt Positive as simple as reversing the battery cables, changing the Ignition Coil leads and flashing the generator?
And changing the leads on the amp gauge.
I've heard that switching back to Positive Ground might cause battery damage to the formally negative ground battery - is this true That's probably true if the tractor starts running backwards now that it is neg ground. LOL Why in the world would this tractor have been switched from Postive Ground to Negative Ground? Your guess would be as good as anybodies. Some people might want to jump a tractor without have to figure what post to hook the red clamp to. It can be quit confusing you know.
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 12 Apr 2011 at 3:14am |
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If the battery cables were just connected backwards, the posts will fit better with the proper connections. So long as you polarize the generator before starting the engine after changing the battery connections, nothing will be bothered. Coil and ammeter connections also need to be swapped.
Solid state regulators (and some stores are packaging them in cases to look like the original magnetic regulators) will NOT tolerate reversed polarity.
Vintage starters will turn the right direction on DC either polarity, or poorly on AC.
Gerald J.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 13 Apr 2011 at 8:54pm |
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REASON for swapping to negative ground? Only two reasons that I can think of-
One, for familiarity's sake...
Two... because they're using some component that doesn't tolerate positive ground.
In my case, I'll have components that will not tolerate positive ground- First is the control system for a Meyer 8' snowblade that I've had on a half-dozen Jeeps. The pump unit and solenoids don't care, but the little control box is solid-state, and will NOT do positive ground. When I fit it up for wintertime snow-moving, I've got a steel box that hangs under the frame, and a set of cables that parallel to the main battery, and very likely, I'll have some sort of secondary alternator driven off the PTO to power the additional hoist-pump load AND floodlights. Second is a flasher unit with a 4-pin trailer plug that I'll use to blink taillights on a trailer. I often use the D17 to pull boats, utility, and dump trailers around, and not unusual for me to tow 'em from the river valley, up to my place... about a 4 mile trek combination of city streets, country roads, crossing a few highways, etc., and not unusual for me to do it after dark. Problem is, most of our trailers now use LEDs, and SOME really don't like polarity reversal. My trailer-towing 'box' also has an electric brake controller. I don't tie it into the foot-brakes, but operate it manually. Much safer having the ability to use those brakes when I'm going down some of the hills... especially with 4 tons of rock in the dumper.
2-way radios. I'm a ham, and tend to carry a radio around every so often. Most modern sets are equipped with a protective diode for polarity reversal, but I don't like to find out the hard way.
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 13 Apr 2011 at 9:12pm |
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The SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) was silent on the topic until the mid 1950s when they suggested the negative battery terminal be solidly grounded to the chassis. Then by the early 1960s a new revision of that standard said the negative terminal SHALL be grounded. Took nearly ten years for Deere to go along with it.
Gerald J.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 14 Apr 2011 at 10:16pm |
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Got it!!!
Flashed it, hooked up ammeter the other way, and got a little charge, went to 13.23.
Had to do a little research to figure out which terminals are which, but I found it... also found a DELCO TSB that describes all adjustments, so I was able to correct cutout and voltage setpoint, and it works like a champ! Thanks guys!!!
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 14 Apr 2011 at 10:17pm |
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Oh- the doc I found was at:
http://www.ruiter.ca/mc/info/PDFs/1R-116.pdf
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 15 Apr 2011 at 12:47am |
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When I got it about 21 years ago, my MF-135 had a new regulator but it didn't charge well. So I tweaked it a bit and its done fine ever since, charged the battery fully but without overcharging it. And has kept up with an electric sprayer pump and planter monitor at the same time.
Gerald J.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 15 Apr 2011 at 5:44pm |
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Yeah, this ought'a work great... looks nice and stock, only giveaway is the terminal on the distributor being removed, and trigger wires coming out. I suppose I could have modified the wiring and landed the ground internal (like the points were), but I'll sacrifice that for fewer electrical connections.
Got a half-crazy idea... think I might take the 'traction booster' gauge off, get a good looking face, and mount a voltmeter movement inside it... so that it'll actually move, and then very discretely 'mark' the traction booster increments to indicate system voltage... Sitting still, nobody would ever suspect...
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 15 Apr 2011 at 6:12pm |
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Since the battery current is very sensitive to voltage, I prefer the ammeter. I've had both at the same time, I always learned more about the battery condition and its charging from the ammeter. When the generator/alternator voltage is correct (14.2 for a 12 volt at 68 F) the battery will take current (so long as its connected) and that current will taper off. If the voltage is correct, it will taper to zero. If the voltage is high it won't taper to zero, if the voltage is low it won't take as much current or as long after each start. And unless the voltmeter is attached directly to the battery posts it will give misleading readings about the battery voltage because of wiring drop whether charging or discharging the voltage changes in the rest of the wiring will be greater. And you probably can't leave the voltmeter connected to the battery, unless its a lab quality instrument because the voltmeter current will discharge the battery.
Gerald J.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 15 Apr 2011 at 10:02pm |
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No, I wouldn't nix the ammeter for any reason. Just that very few Traction Booster gauge replacements actually 'do anything'... so if it's gonna be a dummy anyway, I'd stick a voltmeter movement in it, and wire it to the ignition switch.
Of course I'm not using it for finite instrumentation- if I see my system voltage is blatantly low or high, though, I'll know to suspect a problem. A fully charged battery, as indicated by the ammeter, is the same as a faulty ammeter... which is something I have had problems with in my boats... so I run with both.
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LouSWPA
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Posted: 15 Apr 2011 at 10:22pm |
I'm getting a real charge out of this post! It really sparks my interest. Someone will probably give me static over my comments, but, I really do like to keep current with the latest technology. One never knows what shocking discovery is coming next!
Ok, OK, I'm sorry.....I'm going to bed now
No, wait....I have more. I'm positive someone will have a negative comment about this but I have the capacity to take my induction into the halls (effect?) of criticism! This is simply electrifying!
OK, now I'm done
Edited by LouSWPA - 15 Apr 2011 at 10:32pm
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I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord;
be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 15 Apr 2011 at 10:41pm |
Good night Lou. LOL Dave, if you wanted a working traction booster gauge, you can buy a 5000psi back mount gauge pretty cheap. It wont say Allis Chalmers on it and it won't say Traction Boost, but it will do the same thing as the original gauge.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 16 Apr 2011 at 6:19am |
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Wow, Lou- I don't know what got you all wound up, but I hope I didn't brush you the wrong way- I've been resisting the urge to buck all these comments too energetically, but I do find your comments to be enlightening and exciting!
Charlie- I don't have a need for a traction booster gauges at all... and noticed that there's lots of replacement gauges that are 'dummy' gauges... so why not make the 'dummy' gauge actually DO something, just something you wouldn'y expect.
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