What's this reconditioned head for?

Got some NOS parts from a closed dealer and some
reconditioned parts came with them. I think this
head is for one of the lower numbered D series. The
work on the head is well done but now I need to know
what it's for. I'm thinking D 14 or 15. The casting
number is 2917-12. Thanks for any help. Den

Own 4 wheel 20, 2-5015, 5020 and associated equipment and 2 electric forklifts.

Casting # sounds like a head for a C.

Waukesha B, B, IB, G, styled WF, D15, 615 backhoe, 2-Oliver OC3's, 4 Ford Model T's, 3 Model A Fords, AV8 Coupe, AV8 Roadster, 1933 Ford Wrecker

I have the head off a C on my bench right now and the casting is AM2917-8. a couple inches farther over is the date, 7 3 40, I would guess you have a C head from 1944.

Waukesha B, B, IB, G, styled WF, D15, 615 backhoe, 2-Oliver OC3's, 4 Ford Model T's, 3 Model A Fords, AV8 Coupe, AV8 Roadster, 1933 Ford Wrecker

On the blocks the suffix represents the date so I assume it's the same on the heads, you just have to know what year they represent and I know mine is a 1940 with -8 suffix. I could be wrong but it sounds right to me.

Waukesha B, B, IB, G, styled WF, D15, 615 backhoe, 2-Oliver OC3's, 4 Ford Model T's, 3 Model A Fords, AV8 Coupe, AV8 Roadster, 1933 Ford Wrecker

Could the 8 represent the 8th design change in the head ?

Seems it would make more sense than if the same heads were cast in example 3 consecutive years wth no changes.

Don't know - just a thought.

Gary

Larry, Brian Smith used a computer program to come up with the numbers. He entered known casting numbers with known year of production and came up with this set of numbers. http://people.clemson.edu/~wsmth/engcast.htm
The numbers seem to match pretty well with what other people have except for my 1951 CA669 has a "1956" block. I asked Dad about it and he said it was the original block. He bought the tractor new in 1951. Maybe I asked too late. Dad was 88 or 89 when I asked him about it and he never had trouble with long term memory. Charlie

I was mistaken,the casting numbers were taken from a post on yesterdaystractors, the engine serial number and the tractor numbers were used to input into a computer program not the casting numbers.http://people.clemson.edu/~wsmth/SNFind/esn_tsn.htm
My CA has an engine number that fits early in the range of the numbers listed for 1951 tractors. Therefore I have little faith in the casting numbers as determining the year of production.

Edited by CTuckerNWIL - 19 Dec 2010 at 12:05pm

http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF

I really appreciate the info and the link. Thank you guys. That is good information, and helps me understand.

I do think Gary's thought for some parts has merit as well. I have three different cast B oil pans, and they all have different suffix numbers. These suffixes just don't seem to track to years.

If someone knew exactly what A-C was thinking on some of this stuff, they'd be the smartest person on the Forum!

Edited by GBACBFan - 19 Dec 2010 at 12:12pm

"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they
are genuine." - Mark Twain

I could add some other info about my CA. It had engine work done twice between 1951 and 1969 or 70. Both times a rod bearing spun and the crank was polished or ground and bearings replaced. The guy that did the work on it is still around and I have questioned him about a possible block change. He said he doesn't believe the block was ever changed.
I would like to know who Steve is that posted the info about the casting number to year relationship back in 2002.

http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF

Thanks for all the info. Lonnie. it must be a head for a C. Pretty interesting info included with the answer to my question so Larry, hijack any time...it helps me and I'm guessing others learn something new.
Just in case I don't get on here before, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Den

Own 4 wheel 20, 2-5015, 5020 and associated equipment and 2 electric forklifts.

Interesting, kind of shoots my theory.

Waukesha B, B, IB, G, styled WF, D15, 615 backhoe, 2-Oliver OC3's, 4 Ford Model T's, 3 Model A Fords, AV8 Coupe, AV8 Roadster, 1933 Ford Wrecker

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den/southern illinoi Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Sparta, Illinoi Points: 2027	Post Options Post Reply Quote den/southern illinoi Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: What's this reconditioned head for? Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 7:39am
	Got some NOS parts from a closed dealer and some reconditioned parts came with them. I think this head is for one of the lower numbered D series. The work on the head is well done but now I need to know what it's for. I'm thinking D 14 or 15. The casting number is 2917-12. Thanks for any help. Den
	Own 4 wheel 20, 2-5015, 5020 and associated equipment and 2 electric forklifts.

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Chris/CT Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Niantic, Ct Points: 1939	Post Options Post Reply Quote Chris/CT Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 8:18am
	Does it have a "AM- number" on top?

MNLonnie Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Baxter MN Points: 4791	Post Options Post Reply Quote MNLonnie Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 9:16am
	Casting # sounds like a head for a C.
	Waukesha B, B, IB, G, styled WF, D15, 615 backhoe, 2-Oliver OC3's, 4 Ford Model T's, 3 Model A Fords, AV8 Coupe, AV8 Roadster, 1933 Ford Wrecker

den/southern illinoi Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Sparta, Illinoi Points: 2027	Post Options Post Reply Quote den/southern illinoi Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 10:54am
	Chris, That was the AM casting # that I included in my first post, just forgot the AM. So the casting # is AM 2917-12
	Own 4 wheel 20, 2-5015, 5020 and associated equipment and 2 electric forklifts.

MNLonnie Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Baxter MN Points: 4791	Post Options Post Reply Quote MNLonnie Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 11:12am
	I have the head off a C on my bench right now and the casting is AM2917-8. a couple inches farther over is the date, 7 3 40, I would guess you have a C head from 1944.
	Waukesha B, B, IB, G, styled WF, D15, 615 backhoe, 2-Oliver OC3's, 4 Ford Model T's, 3 Model A Fords, AV8 Coupe, AV8 Roadster, 1933 Ford Wrecker

GBACBFan Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Green Bay WI Points: 2662	Post Options Post Reply Quote GBACBFan Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 11:16am
	Interesting info, Lonnie. Are you saying that if the #8 is 1940, #12 is four years later, or 1944? I need to be better versed in A-C's parts numbering, so any input will help.
	"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain

MNLonnie Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Baxter MN Points: 4791	Post Options Post Reply Quote MNLonnie Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 11:30am
	On the blocks the suffix represents the date so I assume it's the same on the heads, you just have to know what year they represent and I know mine is a 1940 with -8 suffix. I could be wrong but it sounds right to me.
	Waukesha B, B, IB, G, styled WF, D15, 615 backhoe, 2-Oliver OC3's, 4 Ford Model T's, 3 Model A Fords, AV8 Coupe, AV8 Roadster, 1933 Ford Wrecker

GBACBFan Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Green Bay WI Points: 2662	Post Options Post Reply Quote GBACBFan Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 11:42am
	Does the suffix on the blocks track the year, i.e. 40, or 0 for 1940, or an arbitrary number for a given year, and raised by one number for each subsequent year like this head example? Sorry for hijacking your post, Den, but I waited until your question was answered. I'm trying to extract a learning nugget here.
	"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain

Gary Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Peterborough,On Points: 5629	Post Options Post Reply Quote Gary Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 11:49am
	Could the 8 represent the 8th design change in the head ? Seems it would make more sense than if the same heads were cast in example 3 consecutive years wth no changes. Don't know - just a thought. Gary

MNLonnie Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Baxter MN Points: 4791	Post Options Post Reply Quote MNLonnie Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 11:51am
	On the B/C/CA blocks the -10 is 1938, -11 is 1939 and so on. It appears that the heads use -8 as 1940, I don't have a second head to test the theory. Edited by MNLonnie - 19 Dec 2010 at 12:24pm
	Waukesha B, B, IB, G, styled WF, D15, 615 backhoe, 2-Oliver OC3's, 4 Ford Model T's, 3 Model A Fords, AV8 Coupe, AV8 Roadster, 1933 Ford Wrecker

CTuckerNWIL Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: NW Illinois Points: 22823	Post Options Post Reply Quote CTuckerNWIL Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 11:54am
	Larry, Brian Smith used a computer program to come up with the numbers. He entered known casting numbers with known year of production and came up with this set of numbers. http://people.clemson.edu/~wsmth/engcast.htm The numbers seem to match pretty well with what other people have except for my 1951 CA669 has a "1956" block. I asked Dad about it and he said it was the original block. He bought the tractor new in 1951. Maybe I asked too late. Dad was 88 or 89 when I asked him about it and he never had trouble with long term memory. Charlie I was mistaken,the casting numbers were taken from a post on yesterdaystractors, the engine serial number and the tractor numbers were used to input into a computer program not the casting numbers.http://people.clemson.edu/~wsmth/SNFind/esn_tsn.htm My CA has an engine number that fits early in the range of the numbers listed for 1951 tractors. Therefore I have little faith in the casting numbers as determining the year of production. Edited by CTuckerNWIL - 19 Dec 2010 at 12:05pm
	http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF

norm[ind] Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 29 Oct 2010 Location: bourbon,ind Points: 2992	Post Options Post Reply Quote norm[ind] Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 12:06pm
	as long as i have been around since the fifties working in various foundries the am numbers are foundry numbers not a-c #,s in my bookwhere these parts were made oliver-bremen fdry. bourbon ind. fdry where oliver parts were made also i also owned a frt. frt weight pattern once an had the am # on it also fdry. identifaction an looking close some were changed every day for there refernces my 2 cents worked at oliver fdry49-50-51 made castings for there plants mich.ill.ia.ind.

GBACBFan Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Green Bay WI Points: 2662	Post Options Post Reply Quote GBACBFan Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 12:09pm
	I really appreciate the info and the link. Thank you guys. That is good information, and helps me understand. I do think Gary's thought for some parts has merit as well. I have three different cast B oil pans, and they all have different suffix numbers. These suffixes just don't seem to track to years. If someone knew exactly what A-C was thinking on some of this stuff, they'd be the smartest person on the Forum! Edited by GBACBFan - 19 Dec 2010 at 12:12pm
	"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain

Gerald J. Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton Co, IA Points: 5636	Post Options Post Reply Quote Gerald J. Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 12:18pm
	The dash number may have indicated the pattern serial number and its probable that several patterns were in use at the foundary at the same time for the same part. Then the oldest pattern would be scrapped when too worn and a new one made if production still justified having that many patterns in use. Then the foundary may have not produced all parts the same month or year, but because making heads used different sand and iron mixes than making blocks, water pumps, manifolds, or transmission cases plus used different cores, copes and drags, they may have cast particular parts in spurts, possibly even spurts enough to last the factory for years at a time when the castings and the required techniques were particularly special. Gerald J.

CTuckerNWIL Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: NW Illinois Points: 22823	Post Options Post Reply Quote CTuckerNWIL Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 12:19pm
	I could add some other info about my CA. It had engine work done twice between 1951 and 1969 or 70. Both times a rod bearing spun and the crank was polished or ground and bearings replaced. The guy that did the work on it is still around and I have questioned him about a possible block change. He said he doesn't believe the block was ever changed. I would like to know who Steve is that posted the info about the casting number to year relationship back in 2002.
	http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF

MNLonnie Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Baxter MN Points: 4791	Post Options Post Reply Quote MNLonnie Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 12:35pm
	One thought on casting #'s that don't match serial #'s. A while back someone was posting about replacement trannys that came with no serial stamped, apparently you could restamp with your original serial # if you wanted but it wouldn't match the casting # in that case. Doesn't explain your CA #'s if it's all original. Just throwing it out there. Did you figure out what you have Den?
	Waukesha B, B, IB, G, styled WF, D15, 615 backhoe, 2-Oliver OC3's, 4 Ford Model T's, 3 Model A Fords, AV8 Coupe, AV8 Roadster, 1933 Ford Wrecker

den/southern illinoi Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Sparta, Illinoi Points: 2027	Post Options Post Reply Quote den/southern illinoi Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 5:34pm
	Thanks for all the info. Lonnie. it must be a head for a C. Pretty interesting info included with the answer to my question so Larry, hijack any time...it helps me and I'm guessing others learn something new. Just in case I don't get on here before, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Den
	Own 4 wheel 20, 2-5015, 5020 and associated equipment and 2 electric forklifts.

MilesGray (CO/KS) Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: CO/KS Points: 729	Post Options Post Reply Quote MilesGray (CO/KS) Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 Dec 2010 at 5:35pm
	The head on my C shows AM 2917-8 and then date of 3-6-39... Looks pretty good for a 71 year old head...
	Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy!

MNLonnie Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Baxter MN Points: 4791	Post Options Post Reply Quote MNLonnie Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 Dec 2010 at 5:51pm
	Interesting, kind of shoots my theory.
	Waukesha B, B, IB, G, styled WF, D15, 615 backhoe, 2-Oliver OC3's, 4 Ford Model T's, 3 Model A Fords, AV8 Coupe, AV8 Roadster, 1933 Ford Wrecker

CTuckerNWIL Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: NW Illinois Points: 22823	Post Options Post Reply Quote CTuckerNWIL Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 Dec 2010 at 9:17pm
	Miles, What year is the C that 39 head came off of? When I worked at CAT, there were engine castings stacked in the yard for 2 years or more to "cure" so if they had a date stamp on em, that wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with the model year it was used in. I guess my opinion about the casting number goes along with pattern number or engineering change ideas and would have no direct correlation to the model year. That's not to say that a good portion of the engines produced in one year wouldn't have the same casting number.
	http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF