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What is the best power build for a 45 engine?

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    Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 7:44pm
Should I use WC pistons for ultra high compression, 175 overbores, or other? Is running a good ground cam and rocker spacers worth the money? How do you get the most power without stroker crank. 175 was rated at 62hp. is that the most you can get with the 4.5 crank? I would be willing to use racing fuel if needed. 

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A WD45 With 6 to1 is 45 horses a 175 with 8 to 1 is 62. now if you use the formula    E=1-(1/R k-1)  you will find that going from 8.1 to 9.1 is a 3.5 percent increase 10to 1 is 6.5 percent 11to1 9.2 percent 12.1 11.5 percent 13.1 13.6 percent 14.1 is 15.4 percent 15.1 17 percent 16.1 18.6 percent increase . all percentages were figured on starting with a compression ratio of 8.1 . So you can see that you can make over 70 horses with nothing changed but compression ratio. Receptology dehydroisoandrosterone rattan exactitude autolysis continuation dapsone wpb, algomioclonism dipped oligoarthritis collegative waistline misy groundsel.
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as i said before it want be over 8 to 1

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What ratio do you recommend? How do you achieve? Thanks, JM

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 9:15pm
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Location: Vols country
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 9:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 9:27pm
I have a budget of $1500, how far will that go? I know not far when it comes to tractor pulling:)  I am only running 4000#class, 3 mph. 15.5-38s.

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MikeB (SD) View Drop Down
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Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: NE South Dakota
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeB (SD) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 9:45pm

 

 Use the power crater pistons. The handicap we have with these engines is
the flat head(no combustion chamber) to funnel the incoming fresh air and spent
exhaust gases to the valves. The Allis engineers already did this experiment for us
they built a model "F" protoype tractor in the mid 40's as a proposal to replace the
WC of that time era. The engine had a 4" bore and a 5" stroke with flat top pistons
and at 1450 rated RPM only made 41 horsepower.
 The WD45 with it's 4"bore and 4-1/2" stroke made
43 horsepower at a lower 1400 RPM.  I find it difficult to believe that a high
compression flat top is expending all of the exhaust gases out of the combustion
chamber where as the power crater piston is at least trying to funnel the hot exhaust
gases towards the valve.
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ac_bowsers View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Northern IL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ac_bowsers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 10:38pm
use high compression 175 pistons with 4.5 crank, install 175 governor spring, turn the RPM's up 10%, find a 175 carb, or put internal parts of a 175 carb(venturi and jets) inside your 45 carb, electronic ignition, have head ports opened up a bit, and oversized valves. This is the set up in our 1958 D17, 65-70 HP on PTO its running with 15.5-38 rears. The piston kit I got through an old Allis dealer were a little higher compression than 8.1, I think they are 8.4 or 8.6, they crossed over for the Gleaner E engine which produced 67 HP at flywheel. Pistons,pins,sleeves,rings and o-rings came together as one kit. He found them at the Batavia warehouse 6 years ago and was the only one they had there. It came in an earlier-style AGCO box, I don't know if this is even available through them anymore, may want to check. I have will have to look for the part number, the sales recipt is around the shop somewhere!! We run 93 octane fuel. with spark gap set at 0.60.  It sounds completly different than our 57 D17 with the M&W overbore kit that was put into it some 35 plus years ago, and never has been touched since. Dad and Great Grandpa filled 2 50ft silo's with it with an ALLIS long hopper blower on the belt. Here are the pictures of both 17's






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Kip-Utah View Drop Down
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kip-Utah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2009 at 11:51pm
I like the  4.125 bore 175 crater pistons for this type of build. If you are running a 3mph class, just use stock cam, electronic ignition upgrade to stock distributor, D17 or 175 governor spring. MS 464 or similar carburator from a WD45 or D17. This conservative combo should easily get you about 60 HP which is plenty for this type of class. Kip

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HANSEN'S OLD ORANGE IRON. Showing, Pulling, & Going!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2009 at 6:27am
I helped build my brothers D17 that ran standard bore (4") 175 pistons and that alone gives plenty of power for the 4500# and 5500# classes using 14.9x38 "field &road" tires. Many firsts with that. I don't know about others but I have taken apart a couple WD engines using 1/8" overbore sleeves that had a cracked sleeve or two. I only use standard bore cause I don't believe that 1/8" adds up to a lot and i know they won't crack. Compression does a lot though.

Also he built an engine using electronic ignition and Chevy 350 pistons and the top half of H Farmall rods that we welded to bottom half D17 rods which gave a compression of God knows what! Did all the work our selves. I built a crude jig to weld up the rods and then we had them trued up by a local machinist. Didn't do anything special like heat treating or bead blasting. Just welded them on the shop bench like I know others that have done the same. Every one that says you have to do this and that isn't always right. I would install plates on each side of the engine just incase.

Never checked compression but running pump gas when you turned off the key the thing would run like you never shut it off. Have to run airplane fuel. At an idle it cackles so loud with a straight pipe that I prefer to wear ear plugs when driving it.

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BTW I remember reading in a Hot Rod magazine making comparisons between flat top, cratered, and domed pistons that at peak power and compression the cratered piston setup out performs the others because the compression is directed to the center of the piston instead around it and through the rings. The article stated that even hemi pistons with a little higher compression were outperformed by cratered pistons.

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you cant really say that a reverse dome piston helps the allis flat head remove exhaust unless you have spent time on a flow bench. I can tell you now that four short straight runners to the exhaust valve in the allis head flows way better numbers than the intake can possibly ever take in. As for the dished piston vs the falt top someones blowing smoke . the dished piston out weighs a flat top by 200 or more grams the rings set low and most use three compression ring which creates more ring drag. the flat top is lighter the compression rings are smaller only two usually and areup closer to the top of the piston making for a smaller combustion chamber. To each is ther own on how to build . I have built three pulling engines to date and have made suggestions to several who call . Kent dakin kendak@cableone .net  listened  to my suggestion his 4 1/8 over bore 226 with 12.1 compression makes a honest 80 horses . 1500 hundred dollar budget gives you about 1000 to work with for beraings arent cheap anymore.

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I haven't spent any time on a flow bench. I'm just relaying what I read in Hot Rod once about ten years or more ago. As far as flat vs dished for Allis they both use the same amount of rings and the exact same rings. Distance from top of piston to top ring I don't know on the Allis pistons flat vs dished. 

I installed dished 175 pistons in my WD which amounted to about the same compression as the stock flat top pistons but with the dish. Price was the same and I wasn't building a puller and they work well it seems but I doubt I would be able to tell a difference on a otherwise stock WD.

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well most of  hot rod magazines article are written on automotive engines that were designed with quench. allis engine was designed with no quench . which to say is like comparring apples to oranges. I would also say you had more than 100 dollars in the work in those rods .thats what most shops charge to turn a crank. just merly  a suggestion to look into on youre next build.

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i'll take your word but the rods didn't cost more than something like 10 or 20 bucks to get the H rods and the machinist charged something like 20 bucks to check them over and straighten one out. This was about a dozen years ago. Really not much money into this engine. Put the stock one back in the D17 now and might put this engine into a WD instead someday, if one of us ever gets the fever again.

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This is real interesting and I hope we can keep this going. I have a question------ after raising the compression to 12:1 , are there any problems with the starter motor? Also, is there an advantage to running a WC vs. WD, WD45 ?

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lonn I tried a year ago to  redesign the 226 for quench . what i found after dealing with 3 major piston manufacturers arias, ross, and je . was this they all agreed that they was simply no way to make a dished piston with a large enough dish to park the piston at the top of the deck which is the design for quench to work. they all agreed that dish piston were heavier and they knew of no formula or way to tell if anything would be gained with a heavier dished piston below the deck as for a lighter flat top below the deck. They all three thought that with no combustion chamber in the head to shroud the valves that the flat tops is what i should stay with and thats what i have done in my personal applications . Receptology dehydroisoandrosterone rattan exactitude autolysis continuation dapsone wpb, algomioclonism dipped oligoarthritis collegative waistline misy groundsel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2009 at 1:58pm
yes you have to hop the starter up also . I have had good luck with that at not to much of a cost or trouble Kerry Hensly runs two of the starters on his 392 cubic inch tractors with as much success as I have had with it. he did have a starter ring to slip on the flywheel which bugged him untill he found it. Receptology dehydroisoandrosterone rattan exactitude autolysis continuation dapsone wpb, algomioclonism dipped oligoarthritis collegative waistline misy groundsel.
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