D17 Blue Smoke Blues

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   My Series I smokes a lot and misses a fair bit.  When I changed exhaust/intake manifold, #3 and #4 looked pretty built up with oil and carbon.  #3 actually had oil dripping out the exhaust port when it runs.

Pulled the head yesterday.  #2, #3, and #4 pistons had oil in the top.  #3 was the worst, it had a lot of oil in it.  The piston tops are almost like new - hardly any carbon on them, except #1 has a bit.  I've only had the tractor a year, so I am not sure when the engine was last rebuilt.  I did find that the thermostat was stuck open for who knows how many years the engine ran stone cold.

So - is it normal that the piston tops should be clean / like new?
Anyone have an idea where the oil is coming from?  Valve guides?  ( I can rock the valves a bit in the head).
Could it be worn / broken rings from the engine running cold?
I plan on having the head rebuilt - guides / ground, maybe new valves and springs (I don't want to have to do this again - ever).  As long as I have it apart this far, should I replace the rings?  I had the pan off last week and I dread doing that again, but I will if I need to.
Any help / advice appreciated.
cheers,

Creek

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Creek Jenkins Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Northern Minn Points: 812	Post Options Post Reply Quote Creek Jenkins Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: D17 Blue Smoke Blues Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 9:20am
	My Series I smokes a lot and misses a fair bit. When I changed exhaust/intake manifold, #3 and #4 looked pretty built up with oil and carbon. #3 actually had oil dripping out the exhaust port when it runs. Pulled the head yesterday. #2, #3, and #4 pistons had oil in the top. #3 was the worst, it had a lot of oil in it. The piston tops are almost like new - hardly any carbon on them, except #1 has a bit. I've only had the tractor a year, so I am not sure when the engine was last rebuilt. I did find that the thermostat was stuck open for who knows how many years the engine ran stone cold. So - is it normal that the piston tops should be clean / like new? Anyone have an idea where the oil is coming from? Valve guides? ( I can rock the valves a bit in the head). Could it be worn / broken rings from the engine running cold? I plan on having the head rebuilt - guides / ground, maybe new valves and springs (I don't want to have to do this again - ever). As long as I have it apart this far, should I replace the rings? I had the pan off last week and I dread doing that again, but I will if I need to. Any help / advice appreciated. cheers, Creek

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Jeff Z. NY Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Points: 7326	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jeff Z. NY Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 9:35am
	If you can rock the valves in the guides that will probably be a good source of the oil in the cylinders. It probably wouldn't hurt to do the rings while you are wating for the head to get done. You can also check bearing wear while it is apart.

Brian Jasper co. Ia Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508	Post Options Post Reply Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 10:34am
	Loose valve guides can cause some oil to go through. Generally, the engine will smoke when you first start it and then clear up. If it were me, I would check the pistons and sleeves for wear. Usually when pistons are completely washed off, the rings aren't holding anymore. If you don't want to take it apart again, I'd consider at minimum a set of sleeves and pistons.

BobDinNC Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Silver Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Newport, NC Points: 245	Post Options Post Reply Quote BobDinNC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 12:53pm
	I share your pain about taking the pan off. I have been in denial for about three months hoping it would fix itself and save me that experience - again.

DonBC Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Courtenay, BC, Points: 927	Post Options Post Reply Quote DonBC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 1:29pm
	I have a D grader with the same engine. It ran rough and smoked a lot when I bought it so the first thing I did was pull the head and had it rebuilt. Two exhaust valves had to be replaced, the rocker arm shaft was broken and badly worn and the manifold gaskets were bad. I had the head professionally rebuilt and the manifold built up and machined level. This made a big difference but the engine still burns a lot of oil and will foul a couple of the plugs. I noticed that there was a good ridge at the top of the sleeves and a scratch down the #4 sleeve. In my case I know that I need new sleeves and rings but it is otherwise running ok so I am holding off for a while. In your case rebuilding the head may cure all your problems if the sleeves are not showing much wear. It is possible if the engine always ran cold and was not ever worked very had that the rings are stuck in the pistons. Years ago I helped my brother-in-law rebuild the 6 cylinder engine in his Chev car. It had a standard 3 speed transmission and he would be in third gear by the time he was doing 10 mph and rarely ever drove it on the highway. The engine had very little wear but the all the rings were seized in the pistons. I had to break them out in pieces to get them out. If your sleeves are not showing a lot of wear then rebuilding the head plus giving the engine a good workout may be the cure. I don't know if there is any additive that could loosen badly stuck rings.
	Jack of all trades, master of none

Creek Jenkins Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Northern Minn Points: 812	Post Options Post Reply Quote Creek Jenkins Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 Sep 2009 at 6:54pm
	I think I am leaning toward replacing the rings at least. I'd be crazy not to. Just hate pulling that pan again...even with manual steering it's a pain in the yah yah. I looked at the pistons again today - clean tops in 2/3/4. All bores bright shiny, no scratches, very little ridge. I think this tractor was overhauled recently, they just didn't do a real great job. Prolly didn't replace the valve guides. I'm leaning toward DonBC's theory - the engine ran cold for so long the rings might be stuck. As long as I have it apart I guess I better replace them to be sure. The engine has really good oil pressure after I cleaned the oil pump pickup screen, so I'm going with the theory that the head needs guides and valves - probably springs too as I can easily compress the valves - and rings. And cross my fingers. The head bolts / studs were really stuck hard. When I pulled the head bolts out they were full of rust and crap. The holes in the head for the studs were so full of crap that I had to use a jack to get the head to move. I'll clean up the holes, run taps down into the block and dies over the studs. I think someone said a while back that their are some head gaskets to avoid? I was thinking of going to NAPA for gaskets and rings - anyone have any experience with them? Cheers and thanks, Creek

Creek Jenkins Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Northern Minn Points: 812	Post Options Post Reply Quote Creek Jenkins Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Sep 2009 at 8:15am
	Also I seemed to have solved the mystery of the thin washer fragments in the oil pan. I found another fragment on top of the head. It looks like there are some shims on the top of the exhaust valve springs. Some of them are broken. Seems wierd that the valve springs would be shiimmed........? cheers, Creek

Creek Jenkins Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Northern Minn Points: 812	Post Options Post Reply Quote Creek Jenkins Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Sep 2009 at 3:16pm
	Just dropped the head off at the shop. The guy there said the valve spring shims should be on the bottom of the spring, not the top. That could be why they broke. He is going to try to fix the exhaust port erosion as well - he thinks maybe he can mill around the exhaust port and put in a shim out of brass or copper. cheers, Creek

Steve in NJ Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Andover, NJ Points: 11849	Post Options Post Reply Quote Steve in NJ Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Sep 2009 at 6:54am
	Its pretty tough to diagnose an engine with oil control problems from the chair in front of a computer. Shiney cylinder walls aren't a good sign of piston ring seal either. Usually that shows a lack of seal between the rings and the cylinder walls. Worn valve guides are always an oil control problem, (especially for engines that don't use oil seals) and blue smoke can appear and then disappear as the engine runs. If the guides are really worn, blue smoke can appear even at idle or in the work mode. If you don't go for a complete OV kit, at least hone the cylinders and pick yourself up a set of oversize rings, and custom fit your end gaps of the rings to each cylinder. With the head all done, and a tight seal and good cross-hatch hone on the cylinder walls, I would think your oil control problems will now be in check, compression up, and power back to where it should be originally. I would also treat it to a tune-up and screw a new set of Autolite's or plug of your choice in the engine to cap off the rebuild.... HTH Steve@B&B

mlpankey Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580	Post Options Post Reply Quote mlpankey Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Sep 2009 at 7:37am
	If youre noticing the oil smoke when lifting the throttle its known as oil suckback and its time to replace the sleeves and rings. You mention the piston tops look new and that sounds like water is also getting into the cylinders. The water could be youre culprit making the oil level to high in the crankcase . you should have noticed that when you removed the oil pan though.

mlpankey Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580	Post Options Post Reply Quote mlpankey Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Sep 2009 at 9:38am
	use the felpro blue head gasket.

Creek Jenkins Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Northern Minn Points: 812	Post Options Post Reply Quote Creek Jenkins Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Sep 2009 at 2:52pm
	I'm going to mic the bores today or tomorrow after I borrow a bore mic from the shop. The machinist told me to check for taper in the bore, over 0.005 is too much. I'll pull the pan and change the rings at least, the sleeves if they measure out too big or too tapered. The machinist is going to build up the area of the exhaust ports on the head - this must be a common problem with the G226 and the goofy manifold / gasket arrangement. The head is eroded around the outside of #1 and #4 exhaust port. The machinist thinks he can mill away a bit of the head and make a brass or steel shim in the shape of the gasket and tack it or peen it to the head. cheers, Creek

mlpankey Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580	Post Options Post Reply Quote mlpankey Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Sep 2009 at 5:50pm
	that will work i would just fill the pits with belzona 111 and machine flat .