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1962 D19D - Minus Turbo |
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wjohn
Orange Level Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Location: KS Points: 1998 |
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Posted: 02 Sep 2023 at 10:17pm |
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I just picked up a D19 diesel. I have a D19 gasser that has bad rear rims, tires, and engine and figured what the heck, can't go wrong with this diesel and maybe I can make one good tractor out of the two. Engine is stuck, starter is missing, one lift cylinder is busted, air cleaner cup is gone, and someone was either really short and didn't like the factory hydraulic controls and seat, or this was some sort of special purpose build. Lots of mysteries with this tractor.
I had been contemplating trying to fix it up. Then realized there is no turbocharger and therefore I'm not even sure what engine is in it, other than it appears to be a D262. All the D-19s I find online have a spin on filter on the LH side of the engine and this one has a cartridge style, so is it an older engine from a D17 or some other application that was naturally aspirated? I'm thinking I mess with the engine a little in the off chance it's barely stuck. If so, maybe the diesel becomes my engine if it doesn't need an expensive rebuild. If not, I'm probably better off putting my money into rebuilding the G262 in the other D19? I'd like to hear your guys' thoughts... What would you do? I know these diesels had issues with the blocks and heads. |
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20582 |
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That's a D-17 diesel engine, I think, so a whole 51 HP at the PTO, instead of 66 HP a D-19 turbo diesel would have. They even used the power steering pump on the generator from the D-17.
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wjohn
Orange Level Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Location: KS Points: 1998 |
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Thank you for the ID DrAllis. That makes sense. Would you vote for focusing on fixing up the G262 instead? More power (than this NA D262) and better reliability as I have gathered from reading the forum?
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20582 |
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Any G-262 is a better engine than a DT-262.
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AC720Man
Orange Level Joined: 10 Oct 2016 Location: Shenandoah, Va Points: 4932 |
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Wow, the generator oil guard is still on the adjustment bracket. That’s hard to come by, most of them got chucked.
That’s quite a project there. The D262 is expensive to rebuild. |
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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IBWD MIke
Orange Level Joined: 08 Apr 2012 Location: Newton Ia. Points: 3752 |
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wjohn, you do come up with some interesting project tractors! Good luck with this one and all the rest for that matter.
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wjohn
Orange Level Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Location: KS Points: 1998 |
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I guess the question is would you go with the G262 over the D262 (naturally aspirated)?
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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wjohn
Orange Level Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Location: KS Points: 1998 |
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Interesting. I'll be sure to hang onto it. Space sure is tight up there by the generator, fan, and air cleaner. That other thread about the D17 diesel fan to air cleaner clearance is right, it's sure close. I may rebuild the G262 in the other tractor instead, but either way it's not very cheap compared to a WD-45.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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wjohn
Orange Level Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Location: KS Points: 1998 |
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Thanks Mike. I'm going to have to retire so I have time to get to all of them. The WD is still slowly going back together in the shop but it's a relief to have the Super M operational. Both of the D19s waiting for me to figure out a plan of action: |
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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IBWD MIke
Orange Level Joined: 08 Apr 2012 Location: Newton Ia. Points: 3752 |
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wjohn
Orange Level Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Location: KS Points: 1998 |
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I was able to spend a little time on this tractor this week. You can see just a hint of movement in the flywheel when you try to bar it over at the ring gear. I moved on to pulling the injectors so I can see if any of them have any rust, and dump some penetrating concoction down the cylinders. I figured out the right combination of pry bars tonight and popped the #6 injector out. Visually, it doesn't look too bad, and definitely doesn't seem like it's had any moisture exposure.
Also... There was a decent sized knife sitting on the battery tray that I didn't see until I opened the hood panel. I'm open to everyone's theories on why that was left there. |
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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injpumpEd
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 4921 |
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By the pump number, it's an early D17 like Dr said above, the DGFCL629-12A is D17, early D eries Roosa pump, very different inside then the later DB found on almost everything lol! Don't force the pump to turn if it's stuck from sitting. You'll end up with it seizing the hydraulic head, and they're long obsolete. Good used are getting harder to find.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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wjohn
Orange Level Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Location: KS Points: 1998 |
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Thanks Ed! I needed the reminder... I've read that a dozen times on the forum, but not being a guy with a lot of diesel engine experience, it wasn't the first thought in my head. After I get the injectors all pulled and see if there's any rust, I'll pull the pump off and try to spin the engine over again. There was plenty of diesel in the lines when I removed the nuts from the injectors so hopefully the pump isn't in too bad of shape.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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wjohn
Orange Level Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Location: KS Points: 1998 |
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All of the injectors came out. A few of the cylinders and injector tips had what I would call light condensation rust spots. I dumped some diesel into the cylinders and we'll see if I get lucky.
I pulled the two nuts for the injection pump and pulled it back slightly from the timing cover. It seemed to be spinning nicely when I rotated the pump around with the shaft/gear still engaged, and no hint of any rust on the shaft. So, I don't believe the pump is stuck - good news. Things look pretty good under the valve cover, too. If this thing isn't stuck very badly, I'll try to get it running. Still trying to see if that will happen before shifting focus on rebuilding the gas engine in the other D19. |
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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AC720Man
Orange Level Joined: 10 Oct 2016 Location: Shenandoah, Va Points: 4932 |
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Doc and Ed are correct, that setup is straight from a series 1 D17. Exactly like my series 1 I just finished. Ed is giving you great advice, if you plan to save the diesel pull the pump and have it serviced before you go any farther if damage hasn’t already been done. I tried to advise a good friend of mine a month ago when we started his WD45D project to remove the pump and have it serviced because ED has been advising everyone for years to do so. He didn’t listen, it’s had fuel in it so it should be fine he said. It had been sitting for a few years with almost a full tank of fuel. After replacing the bad o-rings in number 6 cylinder sleeve, replacing the head gasket, new sealing washers on the injectors, reluctantly we attempted to start it. When no fuel appeared in the fuel filters after cranking for a minute of so I called ED. He instructed me to check the lift pump and sure enough the idle gear was stuck, shearing the key on the shaft and popping the snap ring into the pump. Now he has serious issues as parts are NLA. Ruined probably a good salvageable pump, feel bad for him, it’s a nice original tractor, but I did my best to get him to send it off multiple times. Not sure if he will be able to find parts or another pump to a rare tractor.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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wjohn
Orange Level Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Location: KS Points: 1998 |
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Ah, I see now that my attempt to rotate the pump itself around the shaft was meaningless. The shaft disengages from inside the pump when you pull the pump back:
But... quick and dirty, I can pull the pump back like this when I try to get the engine to turn, and avoid turning the pump. If I do somehow get the engine unstuck then I'll have to properly pull the pump off and see if it is stuck or turning like it should. Thanks to all for the advice so far!
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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WF owner
Orange Level Joined: 12 May 2013 Location: Bombay NY Points: 4672 |
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Now that you have the injectors out, if you could borrow a borescope camera, you could get an idea what the inside of the cylinders look like.
I have an inexpensive borescope (less than $20) that sends the picture to my phone.
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AC720Man
Orange Level Joined: 10 Oct 2016 Location: Shenandoah, Va Points: 4932 |
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If the pump is slid back far enough then yes you are correct it would not turn the pump. The injector lines would all have to be disconnected to do so. If you did that before attempting to turn the engine then you are ok. Ed rebuilt my pump and runs much smoother and starts easier than it did before.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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AC720Man
Orange Level Joined: 10 Oct 2016 Location: Shenandoah, Va Points: 4932 |
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Actually a pretty clean engine, doesn’t appear to have a bunch of leaks on it. Do you know any history on it? Why it was parked? What does the oil look like? Any antifreeze in it? I like my Buda powered D17, has good power, seams to be fuel efficient, and has a cool exhaust sound to it totally different than my XTD. But, they are expensive to rebuild and parts are getting harder to come by. I would try to save it if the block, injection pump and head turn out to be good. Good luck and keep us up to date on your project.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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wjohn
Orange Level Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Location: KS Points: 1998 |
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I like that idea. I'll see what I can find that can make the turn down into the cylinder from the injector port.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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wjohn
Orange Level Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Location: KS Points: 1998 |
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It's definitely not a rust heap. I bought the tractor from a scrap cleanup guy, who said it was under a roof but not inside. So unfortunately I don't have any more history than that. Oil is black and about 1/4" below the full mark, and the coolant is full and looks good. My quandary is that this is obviously not the correct engine for this tractor, so I don't want to sink a lot of money into it (it might be better off saved for an early D-17 diesel should I buy one in the future, or sold to someone who needs it for their D-17). It's stuck, but if I can get it loose with minimal effort, I'll still have to buy a starter (this one is AWOL) and likely have the injection pump rebuilt, as you noted. Those two together will be north of $1K, I'm sure, and I still won't know if this engine has terrible oil pressure or some other issue that I can't detect until I get it running. So, trying to put some minimal effort into it in the short-term but preparing for the worst... I won't be surprised if I discover an issue with this tractor and invest my money into rebuilding the G262 in the other D-19.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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AC720Man
Orange Level Joined: 10 Oct 2016 Location: Shenandoah, Va Points: 4932 |
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I’m sure if you decide to go gas and pull the Buda you shouldn’t have any issue selling it as is. Not sure what was the difference in the engines besides the turbo on the D19? Maybe a bigger radiator, some plumbing, not sure what else? I’ve never worked on one. I know a guy that bolted a turbo on his D17 and did very well in local tractor pulls for years. Tractor was sold but is still local and running.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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wjohn
Orange Level Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Location: KS Points: 1998 |
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I looked into it some when I first got this tractor and as I recall the compression ratio was lower with the turbo. I'm sure there were some other changes.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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wjohn
Orange Level Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Location: KS Points: 1998 |
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I hadn't touched this tractor after putting diesel in the cylinders several months ago, until today. The weather is great and I thought it was the day to see if it would move.
The flywheel actually budged just a tiny amount when I carefully worked it back and forth with a pry bar on the ring gear - enough to confirm that things are rotating. Didn't push it any further but that's definite progress. Maybe I will end up having to spend $$$ on a new starter and an injection pump rebuild, and hope the engine is in okay condition. Kind of scary to drop that kind of money in an engine and not know if it has bigger problems. However I realize that is chump change compared to actually rebuilding the engine!
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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WF owner
Orange Level Joined: 12 May 2013 Location: Bombay NY Points: 4672 |
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First of all, I have had very limited success loosening stuck engines, but the couple (gas engines) that I did get loose both used oil and smoked badly after I got them running. I suspected the rings were frozen to the piston. They never got any better after extended running.
One thing you have to decide was why the tractor was parked? Did it need some (expensive) repair? There are so many unknowns on a non-running tractor.
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DSeries4
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Ontario, Canada Points: 7342 |
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Before spending any money on the starter or fuel system, take the head off and see how things look on the inside. Doesn't make sense to spend money on outside when the inside is trash. Remember, these diesels are infamous for having the sleeves sinking in the block. Even if things look good and clean, sleeve protrusion can be a very expensive fix!
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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