This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity.
The Forum Parts and Services Unofficial Allis Store Tractor Shows Serial Numbers History
Forum Home Forum Home > Other Topics > Pulling Forum
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


"Lugging" Camshaft

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
Sammule View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 29 Jul 2013
Location: Missouri
Points: 4
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sammule Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Lugging" Camshaft
    Posted: 04 Aug 2013 at 8:47am
Does anyone here have any experience with CamCraft camshafts? I priced one of their "lugging" profiles and hate to wade into uncharted territory. Thanks!

(D17 gas, 250-330 cid. 2800rpms or under)
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
wi50 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Location: weegieland
Points: 1010
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wi50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2013 at 9:34am
For the 2100 RPM engines and less I use a cam in the mid 190's for duration @ .050 lobe lift, and in the lower 240's for seat to seat timeing.  Lobe seperation angle (LSA) vary a little depending on the engine,  the stock stroke engines I stay around 105* LSA.  FOr an engine with a little more stroke in the 5.25-5.75" I'd use a 107* LSA.  For the 6" and longer stroke engines I use a 109-110* LSA
 
It's going to depend on each individual grinders master lobes and how they can shape your cam lobes when they need to start changeing the LSA.
 
For example the cam I use in lower speed engines should read similar to this.
194* duration @ .050
244* advertised duration (seat timeing)
107* LSA
 
Sometimes I'll run a little less on the exhaust lobe, but it's just more work for the cam grinder to change setup.  If it's going to be a higher RPM engine then I'll increase the duration.  If you're running 2800 and less, I'd run more duration then the specs I just gave you.  But it's going to depend on how restricted your carbuerator rules are and how good your cylinder head and manifold are.  If you can run a pretty decent sized carb and good head work, you can run more duration yet and make it work just fine.
 
I've typically got a few cams on hand, but with the different oil pump drive gears and varying engines they go in it's impossiable to keep something that's perfect for everything on hand.
 
If you PM me the specs on the engine I can tell you what I think you should run for a cam, weather it's perfect or not no one knows for sure.  FOr the 2800 RPM and under range on the little Allis engine though I'd use something just a shade over 200* duration on both lobes @ .050".  I think I've got one here that's a little over 200* on the intake lobe and a little over 190* on the exhaust with a 107 LSA for a similar engine.


Edited by wi50 - 04 Aug 2013 at 10:15am
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
Back to Top
patrickmull View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Location: Casey IL
Points: 893
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickmull Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2013 at 8:21pm
on a 4 mph tractor with a 17 engine should a guy degree a cam lets say 103 degrees before or after TDC for low end torque 
Back to Top
patrickmull View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Location: Casey IL
Points: 893
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickmull Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2013 at 9:36pm
?????? what ok a low rpm engine with a Taylor cam should i set it at 103 before or after TDC 
Back to Top
wi50 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Location: weegieland
Points: 1010
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wi50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2013 at 10:06pm
Intake centerline is ATDC.  You want the intakv valve open to it's maximum point after TDC.  It won't do you any good to open it 103 before tdc unless you really need practice working motors.
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
Back to Top
Ihateillinoisnazis View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Location: By The Lake
Points: 273
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ihateillinoisnazis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2013 at 8:19am
It didn't take long to figure out who "volfan" is...
Back to Top
blue924.9 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Location: George Iowa
Points: 1086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blue924.9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2013 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by Ihateillinoisnazis Ihateillinoisnazis wrote:

It didn't take long to figure out who "volfan" is...
i was thinkin the same thing it would seem pank has went quite and volfan has suddenly sprung up. Notice something vol fan,spose that is shorthand for volls county? I was pretty sure thats were pank listed his homeplace as but i could be wrong

Edited by blue924.9 - 05 Aug 2013 at 1:37pm
Back to Top
blue924.9 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Location: George Iowa
Points: 1086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blue924.9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2013 at 1:42pm
Yup it seems as though the person we know as panky has got suspended, i also noted that pank listed his hometown as vols county.
Back to Top
blue924.9 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Location: George Iowa
Points: 1086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blue924.9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2013 at 2:23pm
No i am done here, just lettin everybody know whats goin on. You shouldnt tarnish peoples reputation when you your self have no reputation. Alright i am done here
Back to Top
Ihateillinoisnazis View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Location: By The Lake
Points: 273
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ihateillinoisnazis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2013 at 2:29pm
Blue didn't get kicked off the forum. It's easy to see a pattern in grammar, spelling, and the lack of practical knowledge posted in your reply.

Cherrio'
Back to Top
mgburchard View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Tennessee
Points: 1123
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mgburchard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2013 at 3:45pm

I hope blue wasn't right . Cause it could have verry well have been my friend mlpankey that had this bet with dave in this web site story . if he is gone you cant ask him and thats your loss i recon. cause a antique tractor could benefit if it was still running below 1000 rpms to cranking speed. 

 

Recently, to commemorate the millennium, I began a series of articles posted on our web site, www.iskycams.com,
entitled “Tech Tips 2000.”

The first ten or so are under the heading “Modern Myths of High Performance.” I decided to write them because I didn't necessarily enjoy repeating myself
over and over in order to undo the misinformation rampant in our industry.

So, like “Tech Tips 2000,” Cam Session is intended to set the record straight with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but, so help me.

Ron Iskenderian: will be setting the record straight in each issue of Drag Racing Online. If you have any questions concerning cams or valvetrain components or tech, just email camsession@racingnetsource.com

Dear Ron,

I have a question: Is it possible to degree a cam by using a compression tester? My friend says that you hook up a comp. tester to a cylinder and crank the engine. You then advance or retard the cam to see if compression goes up. Is this possible?

If this does work, can you also do it on a dual overhead cammed engine? One cam at a time on the dohc?

Thanks. I have 25 bucks riding on this!!

Dave

Dear Dave,

I am often asked about the advisability of dialing in a given camshaft's angular phasing relationship to the crankshaft (i.e.0.4 degrees advance or retard, etc.) by the use of a compression gauge tester. The scenario usually seems to be presented as follows. Advance the cam 2 degrees at a time until your gauge reading peaks and begins to actually decline. Then go back to the highest gauge reading position. This procedure seems to be popular among a small but devoted group of its followers (most of whom are oval track racers) that adamantly insist it's results are unquestionably correct in every case.

Before passing judgment, let us review why gauge readings increase up to a certain point when you advance the camshaft. Advancing the cam makes all the valve events (intake open/close and exhaust open/close) occur earlier. In particular however, it is the earlier intake valve closing which raises your gauge readings by generating higher cranking compression and higher torque in the cylinder (because of the resulting longer effective compression stroke!

This would seem to imply that all camshafts will perform better when timed in such a manner and for the most part this statement is generally correct, especially in oval track. Let us however, dig a little deeper to discover how so and to what extent.

Timing or "Dialing-in" your camshaft by this method involves cranking the engine over at starter-crank speed (about 200/300 RPM). This, of course, is relatively low considering most oval track engines operate between 2500-6500 RPM. Additionally most oval track cars (especially those on 1/4 - 3/8 mile tracks with good hard biting traction surfaces) respond favorably to higher torque in the low-mid RPM range to get "off the corner" faster. In fact he who gets off first, usually can't be caught because strait-aways on the these short tracks aren't long enough to allow for the cars with better "top end" power to catch up.

No wonder then, why nearly every one of these cars would typically install their camshafts 4,6,or even 8 degrees advanced. But is this the range in which the gauge readings will peak as far as cranking compression goes? Often not, for those readings are taken at a starter-crank speed of 300 RPM.

What's better for increasing compression here is not necessarily what's best for doing so at 3,000 or 4,000 or 5,000 or higher RPM. Relying on starter-crank speed gauge readings to determine your cam's installation position may have you advancing your cam 10,12 or perhaps even 15 degrees or more in some cases. While such an extreme advanced position may be appropriate for a camshaft known to be way too big in duration for a given application, I would hardly recommend it for most other cams whose specs are generally considered to be "in the ball park." In such a case you would almost always be over advancing the cam, and throttling yourself back at higher RPM.

As to the question of a dual overhead cammed engine where the intake and exhaust cams may be positioned independently of each other, only the intake cam need be advanced for this purpose.

Also keep in mind that when you advance any camshaft your intake valves will be off their seats further at T.D.C. (Top Dead Center) decreasing your intake valve to piston clearance about .010" to .015" per cam degree of advance, so be sure you have enough clearance to spare.

In conclusion, while it is possible to position your cam in this manner, beware of any extreme advance indications or "false positives." Use discretion in interpreting the results.

Finally, I absolutely do not recommend this procedure for new camshafts! Why? Because excessive cranking of the engine before it fires up for break-in will wipe off the pre-lube of a new cam and lifter assembly rather quickly and can easily lead to premature cam-lobe failure due to lack of lubrication and the resulting metal to metal contact. If you wish to experiment, wait instead until the camshaft is properly broken in.

 

Copyright 1999-2001, Drag Racing Online and Racing Net Source



Edited by mgburchard - 05 Aug 2013 at 3:47pm
Back to Top
patrickmull View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Location: Casey IL
Points: 893
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickmull Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2013 at 3:52pm
thanks wi50 that is what i needed to know / i asked a honest question now a pissing match has started i am sorry for that . if you look both Mitch and rod b is suspended this is the reason they are gone i don't know if volfan is Mitch or not and don't care just stop the pissing match before we lose the forum thanks 

Edited by patrickmull - 05 Aug 2013 at 6:10pm
Back to Top
blue924.9 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Location: George Iowa
Points: 1086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blue924.9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2013 at 8:49pm
Originally posted by patrickmull patrickmull wrote:


thanks wi50 that is what i needed to know / i asked a honest question now a pissing match has started i am sorry for that . if you look both Mitch and rod b is suspended this is the reason they are gone i don't know if volfan is Mitch or not and don't care just stop the pissing match before we lose the forum thanks 
this is all the more i will say. Volfan is pank and i have a pm to prove it
Back to Top
JC-WI View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: wisconsin
Points: 33828
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JC-WI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2013 at 9:32am
And the bets are riding high that certain postings are coming from the same computor... 
He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
Back to Top
blue924.9 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Location: George Iowa
Points: 1086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blue924.9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2013 at 10:31am
Allright guys enough is enough, please stop before the mod steps in. And lets now focus on the question. We said what needed to be said
Back to Top
wi50 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Location: weegieland
Points: 1010
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wi50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2013 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by JC(WI) JC(WI) wrote:

And the bets are riding high that certain postings are coming from the same computor... 
 
Na, the ISP adresses are identical, same computer.  Can't be the same person though, volfan can string a complete sentance togather most of the time.  Pank could only manage it part of the time.LOL
 
Besides, there's no way pank could get an engine to run on his own, we know that.  Volfan must be one of the 5 highly skilled moonshinests in pank"lee"s imaginary shop/still.  If you want more proof pank was offering advice to Blue to get a cam with 40 more degrees of duration than the specs I posted above for a lesser sized, RPM engine back in March by saying you need an advertised duration of 276 to 280 degrees. 
 
And now on to more inconsistancies in the pankey saga.  Or maybe it's just the ramblings of an alcoholic. Either way it's always entertaining and dramatic to point out the similarities in people and the differences in opinion and knowledge from one day to the next.  I'm not even personally attacking anyone, just pointing out the truth, which only the humiliated will find as an attack, the rest of you should find hilarious.
 
Have a nice day in TN. 
 
 


Edited by wi50 - 06 Aug 2013 at 1:47pm
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
Back to Top
wi50 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Location: weegieland
Points: 1010
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wi50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2013 at 1:59pm
Oh, samuell, you mention 2800 RPM, I'd probably not set it for peak torque by advanceing it as far as some here recomend, you'll only wind up disapointed.
 
At 2800 you have twice the wheel speed as you do when the engine gets down in the basement to 1400 RPM.  Even at 1400 it'll lug pretty good.  People worry to much about that low low RPM torque and forget that the run has been decided way before the engine pulls down to that speed.  I'd tune for about 500 RPM less than your peak planned RPM so the engine will lay into it harder when it's upstares and you have your speed.
 
It's really going to depend on how much air you have available, 2800 RPM will do no good if you've got a stock carbuerator hanging on 350 CID, it'll run good at 1200 but at 2800 there will be no torque to maintain.
 
I won a lot of hooks and never spun the tires.  I needed torque at 4500-5000 RPM, at 1000 RPM it didn't matter, at 6500 RPM it didn't matter, there wasn't enough air there to support that speed.  By the time the engine came under 4000 I was either ahead oif the pack for that day or never going to be.
 
How many guys brag about how the 2 cyl Deere will alwayse spin out, down on the last few pops... but he's still 50 feet behind the guys that could maintain their speed
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
Back to Top
mgburchard View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Tennessee
Points: 1123
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mgburchard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2013 at 2:14pm
I dont know how mnay times we have to tell ya we are not the same person lol yes we find this funny and Pankey have a fine shop it even has a concret floor
Back to Top
blue924.9 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Location: George Iowa
Points: 1086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blue924.9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2013 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by mgburchard mgburchard wrote:

I dont know how mnay times we have to tell ya we are not the same person lol yes we find this funny and Pankey have a fine shop it even has a concret floor
I really hope this isn't yet another ml pankey, grammar seems the same as does puncuation
Back to Top
JC-WI View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: wisconsin
Points: 33828
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JC-WI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2013 at 3:34pm
Here is the scoop, volspam.. I mean MITCH, Your last post under your old name was at 5:02pm on Aug. 1st ... Mod nailed you at probably 5:08pm August 1st. and good old MLpankey was suspended. You had sudden withdrawls from not being able to post and had to get a new account/ new member name right away... And came back on as volfan and using your middle name LEE... at 6:41PM August 1st.   Once you established that, you waited what, just a little under 53 hours, you had to start posting again. Couldn't hold out any longer.... Gotta say, it was funny that you lasted that long.. Expected you back the next day with the usual remarks... I missed it by just 29 hours. LOL LOL LOL
  Now fess up and be nice or... Something bad could happen that shouldn't and no need for it to happen...
He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
Back to Top
volfan View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level


Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Points: 25
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote volfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2013 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by JC(WI) JC(WI) wrote:

Here is the scoop, volspam.. I mean MITCH, Your last post under your old name was at 5:02pm on Aug. 1st ... Mod nailed you at probably 5:08pm August 1st. and good old MLpankey was suspended. You had sudden withdrawls from not being able to post and had to get a new account/ new member name right away... And came back on as volfan and using your middle name LEE... at 6:41PM August 1st.   Once you established that, you waited what, just a little under 53 hours, you had to start posting again. Couldn't hold out any longer.... Gotta say, it was funny that you lasted that long.. Expected you back the next day with the usual remarks... I missed it by just 29 hours. LOL LOL LOL
  Now fess up and be nice or... Something bad could happen that shouldn't and no need for it to happen...
pankey paranoia is getting to you . how long has jpankey or mgburchard been members . ml posted a picture of himshelf and burchard to prove they werent the same
Back to Top
mgburchard View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Tennessee
Points: 1123
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mgburchard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2013 at 3:47pm
Your the man Volfan
Back to Top
JC-WI View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: wisconsin
Points: 33828
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JC-WI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2013 at 3:55pm
"ml posted a picture of himshelf and burchard to prove they werent the same" LOL 
 To know that, you were one of the two... Specially since you just came on here so recently... Somebody's tellin fibs through their teeth...  
  Now go read the last sentance you qouted above.   Somebody could be watchin you already... LOL LOL
He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
Back to Top
blue924.9 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Location: George Iowa
Points: 1086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blue924.9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2013 at 4:27pm
see I found one thing that you and pank have in common. the . should be like that .not like that. also pankey edited almost every post he typed as do you, you can quit hiding and calling people out now
Back to Top
blue924.9 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Location: George Iowa
Points: 1086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blue924.9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2013 at 4:33pm
get off the forum and it will be an all technical forum
Back to Top
Ihateillinoisnazis View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Location: By The Lake
Points: 273
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ihateillinoisnazis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2013 at 5:24pm
If the mods around this joint would check the ip logs and ban ip addresses associated with certain screen names. I know, mblowhard, volspam, and spunkalottapus use the same shop computer and its not fair. I say if that's the case go to the library and use their internet. Hey when you clowns are at the library read a book on air flow, physics, oh and pank you can still use a lesson in math and economics.

I tried my hardest not to post but I have no will power.


You boys should just stick to taking pictures of each other in your little green jump suits. Oh and wash the radiation off once and a while....
Back to Top
patrickmull View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Location: Casey IL
Points: 893
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickmull Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2013 at 7:19pm
how do you look up a IP address 
Back to Top
bradley6874 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 05 Sep 2010
Location: salisbury md
Points: 1344
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradley6874 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2013 at 8:27pm
Dont worry about ip adress if you all keep on we will lose the forum the moderator has warned you all and you still keep it up sad sad sad day but then you all will no what we all lost because of a few
You can wash the dirt off the body but you can’t wash the farmer out of the heart and soul
Back to Top
Scooterboy View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 06 Aug 2013
Points: 419
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scooterboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2013 at 6:23am
Pkey, You went about it all wrong.
Read my book "Internet Tractor Forums for Dummies"


Edited by Scooterboy - 07 Aug 2013 at 9:25am
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.


Help Support the
Unofficial Allis Forum