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steve(ill) 
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Location: illinois
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 Posted: 31 Aug 2024 at 4:48pm |
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alternator has a BIG hot wire and a SMALL hot wire... Normally go to the BATTERY, or could be connected to the BIG BATTERY CABLE at the Starter motor.... YES.. that could have arced and caused damage on other cables--- but probably not Internal to the solenoid.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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calico190xt68
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Joined: 12 Jan 2017
Location: Frankton, IN
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Posted: 31 Aug 2024 at 5:35pm |
Those big cables look good to me. I tested the positive and negative cables where they terminate on the starter and I have 12.84 volts. So, I would think that means they are good.
The clicking I hear is on the right of the truck cab where there is a solenoid mounted on the the firewall. I assume one of those wires goes to the starter but hard to track down. I don't hear anything on the starter itself but hard to be two places at once. If I were to try and hotwire this starter to see if it is the starter, how would I do it. I think the top solenoid on the starter has Battery (B) and Motor (M) and Start (s) terminals. Do I need to place a wire from the positive battery (B) to the (S) terminal (which is the wire going to the firewall solenoid, I think). This bypasses the firewall solenoid. On this starter, looking at it as in the picture, it would be, with S being the top terminal where the red small wire is attached.:
S M B
So, I run a wire from S to B and that should spin the starter? That will tell me if the starter or other wiring is bad or not. Would that be correct?
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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calico190xt68
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Location: Frankton, IN
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Posted: 31 Aug 2024 at 6:00pm |
I believe my last post is wrong. I should run a wire as shown in the picture to jump start it. It does nothing when I do this. Does not spark either. I was wrong in that the left side is the battery side. I know it has 12.83 volts on that side as I measured it with my voltmeter, so I have current going to that left terminal. My guess is that the high amps fried the starter solenoid?
I am editing my post. I educated myself and realized that both jumping from positive to S and positive to M should produce different results. One pushes the armature, the other spins the motor. Both clicked and a few sparks but neither tests seemed to work. Maybe pushing the armature works but the start motor did not turn. I am going to remove the starter and then try both tests to see that happens, sometime this weekend. If the ground wire is the problem, this should prove it. I should see something work or it is broke.
Edited by calico190xt68 - 31 Aug 2024 at 7:28pm
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 31 Aug 2024 at 9:22pm |
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putting it on the bench and testing sounds like a good plan.. With al the BIG WIRES off, you can get a better look at them also..
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 31 Aug 2024 at 9:35pm |
you probably have a CONTROL RELAY on the dash area that you are hearing.. When you turn the key to START, that relay sends power to the STARTER SOLENOID mounted on top of the starter.. to the SWITCH terminal ( small) ... they coil inside is grounded to the other small terminal.. When the COIL energizes it pulls down the CONTACTOR and connects the BAT terminal to the MOTOR terminal and the starter bendix kicks in and the starter spins.
AS you said, you can jumper the BAT terminal (BIG) to the SWITHC terminal (small) and it should kick in the bendix and motor run... assuming the other small terminal and motor case are both GROUNDED.
Edited by steve(ill) - 01 Sep 2024 at 2:36pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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nanuk
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Location: Saskatchewan
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Posted: 01 Sep 2024 at 1:03pm |
I have always been taught it is best to have your batteries as balanced as you can. in the picture, if the top battery is going bad, it will damage the other two very quickly AND reduce performance.
everything I have read on the subject, would be to bring either the ground or positive from the bottom. in other words, one from the top, one from the bottom.
I always have tried to go Positive to Starter using the closest terminal/shortest cable. however you can make it happen.
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 02 Sep 2024 at 7:42am |
I have traced the two wires going to the alternator that burnt up. Not sure I understand this and need to reconfirm, but one is going to the relay control on the firewall that is clicking and one goes to the wiring bus on the firewall. I assume it goes to the idiot light under the dash but could it be going to the key switch? Something has to be causing the key switch to activate the started solenoid. There are 3 wires terminated on the same bus where the alternator wire terminates. You can tell by the connectors they are not OEM. Could be the starter solenoid switch wire goes there?
I am going to get to the bottom of it though. I hate taking the looms apart but I have no choice. The one wire is black and one wire is red going to the alternator but in the loom they are just dirty black so going to have to scrape off the dirt.
One other question about routing the charging cable from the alternator. I have seen a diagram where the charging cable terminated on the large positive cable coming from the battery to the starter, and not directly to a battery. Isn't that a better design with a multiple battery setup? If it had been done that way, I wouldn't be in this current mess.
Th other question is
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 02 Sep 2024 at 7:54am |
A "GENERIC" wire diagram for a 3 wire alternator has one of the small wires HOT all the time. I can be connected to the starter LUG or the Battery + terminal since those are BOTH CONNECTED TOGETHER.. The other Signal wire goes to the idiot light and is turned on and off by the key switch.. The KEY supplies 12 v thru the light to the alternator and the light comes on when the key is ON ( engine off).. When the engine startes and alternator starts putting out 12V, it pushes BACK toward the key and both sides of the light have 12v so it goes OUT>>
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 02 Sep 2024 at 7:56am |
Again, the START circuit and the CHARGE circuit have nothing to do with each other.. Their HOT WIRES may terminate on the same terminals at the Battery or Starter... but think of them as completely DIFFERENT circuits.
And you are right... The BIG BATTERY cable goes from the #1 battery to the starter... It is very common for the alternator or accessories that need power, to terminate at the starter end of the cable to clean up minimize the wires attached to the Battery..
Look at the STARTER diagram and CHARGE diagram above and picture them COMBINED in you head.. You can see that the BIG BATTERY cable goes to the starter and the alternator is also connected to ONE END of that cable, and one of the small alternator cables is connected to ONE END of that cable, and the dash relay ( solenoid) is also connected to ONE END of that cable..
something like this ( only the BIG WIRE showen to starter)
Edited by steve(ill) - 02 Sep 2024 at 8:10am
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 02 Sep 2024 at 8:39pm |
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First of all, I really, really appreciate your guidance on my issue. I spliced the 3 wires in like they were, although i went with 8 gauge and 4 gauge which was bigger than what got fried. After hooking I t back up, it started right up! But, i haven't tested the alternator. I will tomorrow. I am super excited to get my truck started again!!!
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 03 Sep 2024 at 7:48pm |
Alternator appears to be working. Batteries showed 12.87 volts without engine running. With engine running, it showed 13.4 volts. So i need to close up the looms and this should be a wrap. I still dont have the 3rd battery inline yet but it is warm out. I also found out that cutout switch runs to a remote power connector to the rear, so it had nothing to do with the lights. I still need to figure out why those taillights stay on. Going to haul 34 round bales or more this weekend.
Here is what it looks like in action.
Edited by calico190xt68 - 03 Sep 2024 at 7:51pm
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 03 Sep 2024 at 10:52pm |
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thats a good lookin rig !! .... hope you got ALL of the "aftermarket" wiring removed as needed !
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 04 Sep 2024 at 7:43am |
I definitely improved the battery box setup and everything secured there. Batteries were kind of floating around.
Unfortunately, there is still a lot of aftermarket wiring left. I am working on the ignition switch next. It came loose due to the bezel stripping, then the wires started twisting when the key was turned, and they came loose. I have repaired connections. I had to cut the bezel off of the ignition switch to save the plastic plate. Couldn't find a matching ignition switch with a bezel, so had to get a generic one. Hope to have that done this week too. There are other wires needing attention but nothing critical to it's use. I have a crazy setup on an aftermarket heater but it is going to take some time to figure that out.
With the engine change, came a lot of chaos with wiring and the heater. I wish I could get the AC working too but that would be a bigger and more expensive project.
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 20 Sep 2024 at 4:44pm |
I like to give a final rundown on my fixes. I hate it when guys never come back with the results. After driving the truck for an hour and turning it off, it would not start. Turns out the starter solenoid was damaged. So, I ended up replacing the whole starter. Works good now and I know there isn't any residual damage. I also got the key ignition fixed. Improved the wiring here and there and rerouted the wires around the side of the engine instead of over the top of the engine. I actually benefitted from the last guy using a ligther gauge wire than he should have. That was the first and only wires that burnt up. Of course, had I not stopped it, it might have done way more damage. Going to track down the heater that supposedly exists. They disconnected the heater tubes when they replaced the engine so not sure what I will find. Anyway, moving round bales as fast we can now.
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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