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FREEDGUY 
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 Topic: # Tag On The XT Axle Housing ??
Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 4:39pm |
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I can't find the original post about the "up dated" rear end on an XT and the significance of the # marking. With the "updated" rear end, did the 3 1/8'" axles come with the "up grade ?? I'm inquiring about a '68 flat top fender model BTW . Thanks
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DrAllis
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Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 5:01pm |
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After chassis serial number 190/190XT-9001, the axle size was increased from 2 3/4" diameter to 3 1/4" diameter. The axle tubes were also changed to accommodate the larger axle. This was not an update, it was a running change/improvement. It was NEVER installed in serial numbers under 9001 as an update.
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FREEDGUY
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Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 5:14pm |
Thanks !!! Apparently I'll have to re-verify our SN-2106 XTD. It has the # marks and 3-1/4" axles though 
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AC720Man
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Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 5:45pm |
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The tread was talking about how to tell if a particular XT had been upgraded to a 4 pinion rear end. My 68 has the larger axles also, the #. My brothers XT is 4 serial numbers higher and has the # on the axle housing also. Turns out, apparently the # doesn’t mean an upgrade. Doc said the only way to know is to pull the pto shaft and look with a flashlight to see if its a 2 or 4 pinion.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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FREEDGUY
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Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 5:57pm |
Thanks 720 !! All I know is that dad is the second owner of this awesome machine that he picked up from the local dealer (in '83) for the cost of the complete rear end rebuild because the original owner told the dealer to "KEEP IT" after getting the repair bill  !!
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DrAllis
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Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 5:59pm |
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If you have 190XTD-s/n 2106 with 3 1/4" axles ??, someone must have replaced the whole rear end at one time in the past, with the newer version. Now, if the tractor has been in your family since new (1965), surely someone would remember that kind of repair being done ??
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FREEDGUY
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Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 6:04pm |
We're the second owner and bought from a local dealer that couldn't get paid for repairs from the original owner . I measured the axles today (and NOT the snap ring diameter on the end  ).
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DrAllis
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Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 6:05pm |
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And you say you have 3 1/8" axles?
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FREEDGUY
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Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 6:13pm |
The axles are 3 1/8", she's a flat fender diesel, mesh grill, but NOT a SIII sticker on her. I will re-verify the SN later this week though  . Thanks for the replies
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DrAllis
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Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 6:15pm |
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Get a new tape measure. …….2 3/4" or 3 1/4" are the only two sizes.
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FREEDGUY
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Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 6:18pm |
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Sorry, 3 1/4", 1/8" is stuck in my head from cabinet door hardware spacing today at work
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DSeries4
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Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 8:49pm |
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Serial number 2106 would make your tractor a 1964 Series 1and NOT an XT. XTs came out in 65.
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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pirlbeck
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Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 11:01am |
I worked for the local Allis from the fall of 1971 until June of 1976 and in that time frame we replaced several 190-190XT rear ends with complete new updated rear end assy. They were complete from the input shaft at the front all they way to both axles. If I remember correctly, we reused the power director clutch, rear lift arm housing, PTO shaft and the diff/bull gear cast cover plate. These had the updated Series III 4 pinion differential. From what I was told, prior to the time I was working there, they had put quite few of these complete rear ends in the early S/N tractors, and I think A/C may of even had some special pricing on these, as they realized they were not heavy enough from the factory. This may explain why some areas have a larger number of early S/N tractors with the 3-1/4" axle rear ends.
I don't remember what the cost was at the time when I was working there, but it seems like the price had went up a lot from what it was earlier. We stocked the 4 pinion differential kit and pretty much all of the transmission gears, shift couplers, bearing and other needed rear end parts as this store had sold a lot of 190XT tractors and with the price increase of the complete rear end were were mostly just repairing them towards the end of my employment there.
Edited by pirlbeck - 07 Mar 2021 at 11:02am
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DrAllis
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Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 11:28am |
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That's an interesting story. I was first in a Dealership the Fall of 1975 and never ever heard my veteran bosses ever mentioning that as ever an option. I remember changing over a couple of pre-S3 XT's over to 4-pinion differentials, which required a different ring and pinion gear set to make that happen. The model 200 was out in Jan 1972, which was a bit different than any S-3 XT, so I wonder if that was what you were getting ?? It would have looked the same, but had different changes on the inside, like a larger ring and pinion for starters. Anyway, these rear end assemblies you installed were NOT on A-C's dime. The customer paid for them, albeit maybe at a reduced price.
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pirlbeck
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Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 1:04pm |
Heck it is going on almost 50 years since I first started working there........how in the hell is that possible?????? I was told that AC had a "fix as fail" program on the reduced price rear ends and this store pretty much tried to change as many of them out under this program as they could get pushed through. I never had anything to do with any warranty claims paper work during my time there, so I am not sure how that all worked. I can remember at least one complete new rear end that sat in the shop on a pallet for a while until we had time to install it.
I also remember John, an older German and LONG time AC mechanic driving more then one 190XT in the shop to work on the transmission for jumping out of gear and him commenting "yep, needs a ring and pinion too" as he said you could feel the "quiver" of a bad pinion shaft on the floor boards, and he was generally correct once he tore it down. I also remember using the special tool to measure the assembled height of the rear pinion bearing and doing the calculations with the bearing dimension, number on the pinion shaft and the numbers on the rear end housing.
I don't remember having to change the R&P to do the 4 pinion upgrade, but I know we stocked new R&P kits and put a number of them in. I can only find one R&P part number on the current 190-190XT-190XT III parts listing and it is shown with the 4 pinion differential kit.
Doc, who was the first Allis Chalmers service rep you remember working with? I know Joe Dullard (spelling???) was one I worked with some. Is Joe still alive? I thought he was a darn good service rep.
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FREEDGUY
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Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 3:08pm |
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I missed a number on our SN, it's 190 21601 XTD, sorry for the confusion and thanks for the information !!
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DrAllis
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Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 5:46pm |
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Worked with Joe Dullard (still alive 3 yrs ago) Orville O'Hara and his son Paul, and Al Latini. The 4-pinion differential ring gear had a larger I.D. hole to slide over the 4-pinion carrier. Only way to make a 2-pinion ring gear work would have been to machine the hole larger, which most Dealerships didn't have anyone close who could do that.
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pirlbeck
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Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 6:21pm |
 DrAllis wrote:
Worked with Joe Dullard (still alive 3 yrs ago) Orville O'Hara and his son Paul, and Al Latini. The 4-pinion differential ring gear had a larger I.D. hole to slide over the 4-pinion carrier. Only way to make a 2-pinion ring gear work would have been to machine the hole larger, which most Dealerships didn't have anyone close who could do that. |
Orville and Al I remember from service schools, I don't know if they were ever assigned to western Iowa. If they were, it may of been before my time.
Not questioning you at all, I just did not remember the ring gear change, but like I said it was not uncommon to put R&P's in them anyway.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 6:53pm |
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I remember Orville talking about 190XT's and 200's pulling 3 bottom plows in western Iowa on the Missouri river bottom. The reason for 3-bottoms ??? It's ALL THEY COULD PULL and the differentials would still fail !!
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AC720Man
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Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 8:23pm |
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Wow, they must have been weak if a 3 bottom plow broke them. Multiple tractors pulls with a turned up pump and farming for the past 5 years and mine is still together. 3 1/4” axles, just hoping its a 4 pinion. I pull a 4 bottom 70 series plow also and our 20’ leveling disk. Sounds like it should have broke by now if it has a 2 pinion rear..serial number 190 20346XTD
Edited by AC720Man - 07 Mar 2021 at 8:28pm
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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DrAllis
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Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 8:36pm |
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You don't fully understand the strain a differential is under when moldboard plowing. The land wheel is constantly struggling for traction. The differential is constantly turning to the right while under full load and doing it for hours on end. A tractor pull going straight down the track for 60 seconds is a piece of cake.
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AC720Man
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Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 8:47pm |
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Good explanation Doc, I see what your saying. I hope I continue to have good luck and not beak her.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 9:00pm |
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Wd's through D17's plowed forever for years without rear end trouble. Guess the 109 engineers didn't see than one coming!
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pirlbeck
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Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 10:08pm |
I am south of Carroll, so about 65 miles as the crow flies from the Missouri river bottom. I don't think our soils pull that hard, but we are in rolling hills that when we have a wet spring water will run out of the side hills and create wet spots.
I started on my own in 1976 and at that time there was very little no till, still a little moldboard plowing and a lot of chisel plowing and ripping. Guys would always try the "one more pass" around the wet spots and end up getting stuck. Rather then admitting defeat and getting another tractor to pull them out they would try to "cowboy" them selves out of the mud hole and this spinning of one wheel at high speed would weld the spider gears to the differential pin. I fixed a LOT of the 2 pinion 4430 differentials in the early 80's. By then JD had a 4 pinion update that later changed to a 3 pinion needled differential. I have never seen a failure of the 4 pinion or the later 3 pinion needled differential. I have seen failures of the 3 pinion needle differential used in JD7600,7700 & 7800 tractors but that was caused by JD thinking a snap ring would work to retain the three spider gear shafts into the center hub instead of a cap screw that worked just fine for years.
One other thing people don't think about when talking about tractor pulling and stock final drive components is the fact that the higher HP classes are pulling in road gear or faster, which puts a lot less strain on the differential and final drives. The spinning will still gall or weld the differential gears to the pin, but almost all are needled for that reason.
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