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wjohn 
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Location: KS
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 Topic: 6V vs. 12V Starter Windings?
Posted: 04 Sep 2021 at 2:29pm |
Is there a way to tell what windings I have in my Delco starter from my WD? I am assuming they are the original 6V, but the tractor was converted to 12V at some point, so I was wanting to check in the off chance someone had actually converted the starter at the same time.
I currently have the starter apart and am about to put it back together.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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SteveM C/IL
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Location: Shelbyville IL
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Posted: 04 Sep 2021 at 3:31pm |
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You know what they say about curiosity and the cat. If it works,use it. My 45 6V has been fine on12V for 40 yrs.
Edited by SteveM C/IL - 04 Sep 2021 at 3:33pm
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DaveSB
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Posted: 04 Sep 2021 at 3:40pm |
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It would take someone more knowledgeable than me on starter windings to answer that, but I do know, at least in these parts, it’s rare to see someone going ahead and having the starter wired to 12 volts when doing a 12 volt conversion, unless the starter was bad at time of conversion I think most people just run the 6 volt starter on 12 volts until they have a problem with the starter.
You might could try a 6 volt battery after the starter is back in the tractor, and If it has been converted to 12 volts , I don’t think the 6 volt battery would start the engine. But I’m guessing there on how powerful it would still be on 6 volts.
You might post some pictures of what you got since it’s apart and maybe Steve will see it and be able to answer your questions.
But I bet it’s still 6 volts, was it pretty dirty and dusty in there, like it hadn’t been apart in years?
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1948 C, 1953 CA, 1948 WD, 1961 D-17 Series 2 Diesel, 1939 WC, 1957 D14
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 04 Sep 2021 at 4:08pm |
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I had a 6v Chevy starter changed to 12v guts because the comutator bars were used up and 12v seemed to be burning it up fast. He changed fields and pushed old shaft into new armature because it uses different drive and ring gear than 12v. Didn't want to change out flywheel.
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Rltool
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Posted: 04 Sep 2021 at 5:48pm |
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Converted 12V starter won’t run right on a 6V battery. Very noticeable difference.
That is how I check.
Ray W.
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wjohn
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Posted: 05 Sep 2021 at 1:26pm |
My money's on it still being 6V as well, although I suspect this is not the original starter to the tractor since it has zero orange paint anywhere on it. I will try to take a few pictures later today.
I'd hate to go out and buy a 6V battery just to see how the starter spins on it. I've heard the 6V starters can be rough on a ring gear if they are hooked up to 12V, but I also know there are thousands of tractors out there like that. I think I'd like to keep the tractor 12V as I don't have anything else that is currently 6V, other than a very dead WC.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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Goose
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Posted: 05 Sep 2021 at 1:31pm |
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I've always used a 12 volt battery on a 6 volt starter. Never had any problems. Still works today.
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"People are human beings, produced by the society in which they live. You encourage people by seeing the good in them." ~ Nelson Mandela
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 05 Sep 2021 at 6:27pm |
As you can see, there's quite a few out there using the 6V Starter motor on 12. Everybody says the same thing. "Ah, I have no problems. Well, it only takes one shot for it to do some damage to one of the components whether its the flywheel ring gear, bending the drive, or whatever. Most people don't want to spend the money on changing the Starter over to 12V because either they're cheap or don't think its necessary. Pretty simple. Just from my 50 years experience in this field, it does make a difference if you change the Starter motor over to 12V when you're doing a conversion. Running 12V's through 6V field coils tends to make the Starter react more violently. This could lead to cracked nose cones, cooked Armatures, bending or breaking a drive, flywheel wear or ring gear breakage, whatever. In the short, it leads to more work, and more money spent especially when you might have to split the Tractor to make the repairs. And of coarse, it always happens at the worst time when you need the Tractor to perform the tasks you use it for and now its broke. When changing over to 12V's, the Starter has a smoother transition to the flywheel, is twice as reliable, and you'll probably never have any problems with it providing the internal upgrade is done correctly. You also can move away from that silly mechanical switch, (if its an early Tractor) and step up to a Starter solenoid. Another nice upgrade. No low current issues which also equates to reliability... HTH
Steve@B&B
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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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wjohn
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Posted: 06 Sep 2021 at 8:56pm |
Thanks Steve - so how do I tell if my starter is set up for 6V or 12V? Is there some way I can check the field coils with a multimeter, or can you visually tell?
I did finally get to the pictures today but I'm not sure if you can tell anything from them. I replaced brushes and bushings, and cleaned up the commutator.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 12 Sep 2021 at 7:04pm |
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I am certain that there is a measurable difference between 6 Volt and 12 Volt field windings (using a suitably sensitive ohm meter) but I have no idea what the exact numbers would be.
I do know that a Model C which I converted to 12 Volts 30+ years ago broke three starter drives and finally stripped out the ring gear on the flywheel in about two years of usage, thus requiring splitting the tractor to fix it. That particular starter really slammed the starter drive HARD.
I switched it back to 6 Volts using a one-wire 6 Volt alternator which solved the problem nicely; it worked fine until I sold it about fifteen years ago.
I had previously converted several older vehicles to 12 Volts with no such problems so I was surprised when this little Model C behaved in such an undesirable manner.
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 8:23am |
There's many, many variables of parts in these old units, and as Les mentioned, you need a book of winding specifications in order to ID certain parts, especially field coils. I usually don't have time to mess around trying to find out what a old unit has, I just tear em' down and build them to my specs (whether 6 or 12V) and start fresh and custom build them for the customer including the Armatures. This is why I warn folks about how these old units can operate running 12V's through a 6V unit. Some are more violent than others, but the problem is there as Les witnessed with his particular application. Other guys have been lucky and haven't had problems. I like to do things the correct way, whether its for me or a customer. But that's me. Some may have a handful of Starters kickin' around, so if one fails, they toss another one in. If it works, hey its good! LOL! Steve@B&B
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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 8:42am |
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If it looks like the field coils have never, ever been removed ...odds are they are 6V coils. In a proper 12V conversion, they'd have to be replaced, and you'll see some kind of scrapes,gouges, missing paint, etc. something.......
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Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
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SEIA Farmer
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Posted: 13 Sep 2021 at 7:52pm |
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Most battery chargers have a 6V and 12V setting, so just use that to check your starter. That way you won't need to buy a 6V battery.
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55allis
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Posted: 14 Sep 2021 at 9:00am |
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I have a wd with the original 6v starter but the tractor is 12v alternator and battery, haven’t had any problems though. My older cousin said that running the 12v on the 6v starter would crank the tractor faster which would start the tractor faster.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 7:26am |
 55allis wrote:
I have a wd with the original 6v starter but the tractor is 12v alternator and battery, haven’t had any problems though. My older cousin said that running the 12v on the 6v starter would crank the tractor faster which would start the tractor faster. |
In my post above I mentioned how the starter engaged so violently that it caused damage; it also cranked so fast that the magneto impulse actually disengaged, thereby producing a weaker spark. The engine wouldn't actually start until I let off the the starter; the magneto impulse would click and then the engine would run.
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Dennis(IA)
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Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 11:09am |
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I changed my WD45 over to 12v a couple of years ago. It works good and always starts the tractor, but I don’t like the way the starter starts to crank, the starter engages the flywheel HARD! I have thought of getting the starter changed to 12v because of that.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 12:05pm |
Dennis(IA) wrote:
I changed my WD45 over to 12v a couple of years ago. It works good and always starts the tractor, but I don’t like the way the starter starts to crank, the starter engages the flywheel HARD! I have thought of getting the starter changed to 12v because of that. |
Yup, that's what my Model C did; I wasn't very happy about having to split the tractor to replace the ring gear, but a Model C is easier to split than a WD45 
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Ed (Ont)
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Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 2:18pm |
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So exactly what Steve said. Get it done right the first time and not have to replace starters and ring gears!! 😀
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 11:55pm |
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My CA has been 12v for over 20 years and finally just last year it needed new brushes and springs. I understand about the violent engagement. I’ve never had any sort of a harsh engagement, but many years ago when I changed it to 12v, It wouldn’t start on 6v and I put all new cables on it which didn’t help, but they were the 04 gauge cables that aren’t big enough for 6v. Maybe the smaller cables are the reason it’s never broken the nose cone, had a bendix problem, or lost flywheel teeth...
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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BrianC
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Posted: 17 Sep 2021 at 7:26am |
My C starter is 6v, I converted to 12v in 2009. It has held up, so far.
However it does seem violent and harsh. Doubling the voltage makes
4 times the starter horse power (I think). If I had the money I would get it converted. If the tractor is hard to start (fuel, spark,issues) do not over user use the starter, it is getting hot much faster.
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wjohn
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Posted: 18 Sep 2021 at 12:50am |
To summarize, it sounds like: -Nobody knows how to ID the field coils -Some people have run unconverted 6V starters with 12V batteries with no issues -Some people have done the same but had issues, worst of which involved splitting the tractor to fix
The options are: -Run it as-is and risk being one of those that experiences harsh engagement and breakage (free, at first, and then maybe not so much if the ring gear or something gets destroyed) -Pay up $$$ to a place that specializes in starters etc. for rebuild -Convert back to 6V battery -Try to find Delco/Remy literature on how to ID parts and rebuild the starter
I am the sort of person that does all of my own work minus automotive tires and some engine machining, so it would be really nice if I lucked into a Delco/Remy manual somewhere, but I'll have to keep digging. Realistically going back to a 6V battery may be the cheapest and easiest option if mine engages the ring gear like a sledgehammer.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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55allis
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Posted: 18 Sep 2021 at 8:49am |
Les Kerf wrote:
55allis wrote:
I have a wd with the original 6v starter but the tractor is 12v alternator and battery, haven’t had any problems though. My older cousin said that running the 12v on the 6v starter would crank the tractor faster which would start the tractor faster. |
In my post above I mentioned how the starter engaged so violently that it caused damage; it also cranked so fast that the magneto impulse actually disengaged, thereby producing a weaker spark. The engine wouldn't actually start until I let off the the starter; the magneto impulse would click and then the engine would run.
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Mine is the distributor kind.
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BrianC
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Posted: 18 Sep 2021 at 10:30am |
Is it real that the magneto impulse coupling could drop out if spinning too fast? If so, would that also mean the 30 degree spark retard is not happening? In effect trying to to have the hyper-active starter push through a before TDC explosion? So, even additional violent action with magneto tractors?
True or not?
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 18 Sep 2021 at 6:23pm |
BrianC wrote:
Is it real that the magneto impulse coupling could drop out if spinning too fast? If so, would that also mean the 30 degree spark retard is not happening? In effect trying to to have the hyper-active starter push through a before TDC explosion? So, even additional violent action with magneto tractors?
True or not?
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It certainly happened in my Model C. I sold that tractor years ago so have no way of knowing the exact starter it had, but it did spin that engine fast enough that the impulse dropped out, you could hear it click as soon as the starter was released. I'm not sure how much actual combustion was occurring BTDC, but I do know that the engine wouldn't actually take off running until the magneto clicked. I could crank it at high speed for a long time and it refused to start, I soon learned to only let it turn over a couple of times, then release it and away she went! When I had to split the tractor to replace the ring gear, I put a 6 Volt, one-wire alternator on it that I purchased from JC Whitney (with a 6 Volt battery, of course) and that solved my problem.
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