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John Deere engine design

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DiyDave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 4:58am
A good book on jd's infamous predatory business practices is Randy Leffingwell's A history of the tractor.  It has a good story about them competing with AC, to make a rear engine cultivating tractor.  By the time they actually had a prototype, AC had produced several thousand model G tractors!  That is, if I am remembering the title of the book right!

And the story of the planter lawsuit was also demonstrative of how they tried to steal and control the production of planters, originally made by someone else!


jd always hires crooked limousine lawyers, to steal what they cannot innovate!Wink


Edited by DiyDave - 10 Apr 2020 at 5:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 10:04am
And it wasn't just JD that was involved in this type of battle... there were plenty others.

History has many details, and it's multiple dimensions in CONTEXT.  Let's start with the basics:

One guy came up with a great idea- three-point hitch.  He patented it, but didn't have the capacity to make lots of them, so he partnered with a guy that made lots of (wimpy) tractors, but he had a big company, with a big legal budget.

Other companies saw this, and it was a good idea, but there was no way they'd ever survive a patent infringmenet suit, and there was no patent license option within reach, so they made their own versions... different enough to avoid an infrigment suit...

Another company came out with a live PTO... it was a great idea... one came out with live hydraulics... one came out with a wet hand clutch, one came out with high-low... another came out with high-neutral-low with wet clutch... there were mechanical lifts, high pressure hydraulics, automatic lifts, sequenced lifts, traction-assisting lifts, steering wheel controlled steering brakes, automatic clutches, hydrostatic drives...

And now you've got a mess of companies, each having their own pile of patents, and legal departments that protect them, and attack others, in order to hold their ground on their little segment of the market, and try to grab the other guys' market segment.

This is the kind of economic battle that has happened since 1930... and notice... not a single darned one of 'em had anything to do with actual building of tractors.

Companies came out with ideas, and patented them, and NEVER EVEN BUILT THEM... the patent's job was simply to prevent OTHERS from using an idea... ESPECIALLY... if that idea was close to, or even better than, an existing idea.

Then there's marketing, which includes creative financing, profit strategies, and obsolescence.  It all comes together as one business warfare.

Stealing patents happens in a variety of ways, but there's a process called War of Attrition that occurs in business... steadily wearing down of your competetor's resources until they cannot fight any longer... and patent infringement is one way to do it.

Let's say you have a great idea, but can't manufacture it in great volume, or get it to market soon.  I steal that idea, I make a very, very, very slight change in something irrelevant... like... I patent my version as different because I use a more expensive type of paint that 'should' be more durable in say... wind and rain.  I immediately start building my version of your idea, and I equal your price, or slightly undercut it, and I slam millions of them out onto the market.  I'm making money big-and-fast, and you're still struggling to get yours to the dealer.  You file suit for patent infringement, and advertise yours, then I countersue YOU for attempting to infringe upon mine, and a volley of discovery process documents, and commensurate legal fees for review time and motions follow.  Of course, mine came later, but I've got lots of cash-flow coming in, I'm getting all the sales, so you've got no war-chest to fight either side of a patent battle.

This is how it happens.   Is it right?  No... but the problem is, that boxing is not about how hard you can punch, how well you can land a punch, and not how hard punch you can take, but how long you can take punches and keep landing good punches... and sneaking one below-the-belt while the ref can't see it.

Business = War...  Dignified business is not often practiced.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 10:36am
A cement truck company up here deals with competition by going to the material suppliers and telling them if they sell too much material to the competition they'll stop buying material from them. They comply because this builder is by far their biggest customer. Then this builder goes to the small competitor and offers a buy out. The small company sees the writing on the wall and sells. As it turns out, government has never been very good at enforcing all laws.......in fact they are very good at selective enforcement. Always has been that way and probably will never change. 

I guess that's why one criminal can rape and murder someone, get a 20 year sentence, maybe serve 10 while the next criminal steals a few million from the wrong guy and ends up with 150 year sentence with no parole. That's very selective, wouldn't you say.........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m16ty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 5:11pm
Usually in lawsuits and criminal cases, you get as good of a defense as you can afford. 
 
That Kinze vs John Deere planter unit battle is more of the exception than the norm. Jon Kinzenbaw was just a little guy going up against the giant John Deere, and won. They probably could have bankrupted him and his lawyer if they really wanted to. This whole deal ended up costing JD a pile of money though, and it was really a unnecessary battle for JD to wage. It probably wasn't a good business decision for either party to get into this peeing match, but feelings were hurt on both sides and everybody was just trying to protect their egos.


Edited by m16ty - 10 Apr 2020 at 5:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by m16ty m16ty wrote:

Originally posted by soggybottomboy soggybottomboy wrote:

Amen m16ty. Same deal with big round balers and track tractors and flexdraper headers and just about everything they make. I got to hand it to them though when it comes to planters. When they came out with the double disc opener planter,that in my opinion was one of the top innovations in agriculture.

On the planters, they didn't invent that either. Jon Kinzenbaw (Kinze) did the research and found that most of the JD planter unit patents were copies on old designs by other manufacturers, and copied the JD planter unit exactly (after JD refused to sell him plater units). Of course JD sued Kinze over it, but Kinze won.
NOT doubting your info at all, but am curious if you (or anyone else on here) knows who came up with the DD openers first Smile ? Possibly IH ??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by FREEDGUY FREEDGUY wrote:

Originally posted by m16ty m16ty wrote:

Originally posted by soggybottomboy soggybottomboy wrote:

Amen m16ty. Same deal with big round balers and track tractors and flexdraper headers and just about everything they make. I got to hand it to them though when it comes to planters. When they came out with the double disc opener planter,that in my opinion was one of the top innovations in agriculture.

On the planters, they didn't invent that either. Jon Kinzenbaw (Kinze) did the research and found that most of the JD planter unit patents were copies on old designs by other manufacturers, and copied the JD planter unit exactly (after JD refused to sell him plater units). Of course JD sued Kinze over it, but Kinze won.
NOT doubting your info at all, but am curious if you (or anyone else on here) knows who came up with the DD openers first Smile ? Possibly IH ??

Don't know who was first, but AC offered the option in 1959...Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 6:43pm
Kinze didn't sue Deere because of an "ego" problem. Read Jon's book. Deere had cut him off on planter units that they had a contract to fill. They hoped he would just go away. He had planter frames sold and had no planter units to hang on them. He was painted into a corner.  He started producing his own generic Max-Emerge planter units to fill his planter sales needs that Mother Deere had agreed to provide by contract. Deere brought it all on themselves. They got exactly what they deserved and catapulted Kinze into a very formidable competitor when it came to planter sales around the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 6:58pm
If I remember right there were two simultaneous lawsuits against Deere and maybe a countersuit by Deere and Kinze won it all. For one thing, besides Deere refusing sale to Kinze I think Deere also stole the folding frame design from Kinze.... If I remember right.

Edited by Lonn - 10 Apr 2020 at 7:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeKroupa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 9:46pm
Doc explained it correctly. We've had several rear-fold planters through the years and the first ones had JD row units on green toolbars. Later ones had Kinze row units, with decal "Products Shortage Division" mounted on red and finally blue toolbars., Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2020 at 9:59am

Nothing smells like a John!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2020 at 2:24pm
I read an article on that....seems like it was Oliver that came up with the double disc....like in the 30's?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2020 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by SteveM C/IL SteveM C/IL wrote:

I read an article on that....seems like it was Oliver that came up with the double disc....like in the 30's?
Wow !!, never gave Oliver an second thought until you brought it up Smile. Makes sense since they had the moldboard plow dialed-in way back when Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m16ty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2020 at 11:37pm
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

Kinze didn't sue Deere because of an "ego" problem. Read Jon's book. Deere had cut him off on planter units that they had a contract to fill. They hoped he would just go away. He had planter frames sold and had no planter units to hang on them. He was painted into a corner.  He started producing his own generic Max-Emerge planter units to fill his planter sales needs that Mother Deere had agreed to provide by contract. Deere brought it all on themselves. They got exactly what they deserved and catapulted Kinze into a very formidable competitor when it came to planter sales around the world.

True, but his planter frames were setup to use JD, AC, or IH units. Now maybe all his customers were requesting JD units, but he could have went to AC or IH for units. Not having fooled with either a Max-Emerge or Kinze unit, are they that much better than the others? It was very risky for him to copy JD's "patented" unit, and could have very well bankrupted him had he lost the suit. JD could have also not settled and probably kept the suit tied up into appeals until Kinze went broke, if they so wished. 

Nothing warms my heart more than seeing somebody stick it to JD, and everybody likes a good David and Goliath story, but we are just hearing one side of the story. I know if we were the ones the "owned" the rights to the Max-Emerge, we wouldn't be really happy with somebody copying our work. I know, from people that own that era Kinze planters, that you can go to any JD dealer and get any part for the unit, they are that close.


Edited by m16ty - 11 Apr 2020 at 11:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m16ty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2020 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by SteveM C/IL SteveM C/IL wrote:

I read an article on that....seems like it was Oliver that came up with the double disc....like in the 30's?

Yes, I think it was Oliver. Oliver didn't patent it though. What got JD in trouble was they weren't candid with the fact that that the design was already in use (making it not qualifying for patent) with the patent office.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2020 at 12:02am
Evans Potato Planter used a double disc opener in 1913 and they patented it.

Edited by Lonn - 12 Apr 2020 at 12:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m16ty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2020 at 12:03am
Originally posted by Lonn Lonn wrote:

If I remember right there were two simultaneous lawsuits against Deere and maybe a countersuit by Deere and Kinze won it all. For one thing, besides Deere refusing sale to Kinze I think Deere also stole the folding frame design from Kinze.... If I remember right.

The two lawsuits were, one for Kinze coping the JD row unit, and the second one was a anti-trust suit brought by Kinze, saying that JD couldn't withhold sales of row units (had something to do with some anti-trust laws). 

I haven't read anything about JD coping the folding frame design. JD did offer to buy the design from Kinze, but he wanted $100 per planter royalty, and JD was offering something like $20. Jon said later that was were two fools met, he was a fool for offering $100, and they were a fool for not taking the offer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigal121892 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2020 at 9:16am
If you read John Kinzenbaw's book, he copied the John Deere design at the advice of his attorney, even went so far as to hire an engineer, to make sure it was an exact copy. If you think about it, most of Kinzenbaw's career has been built on accomplishing things he was told he couldn't do.
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