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In Tank Fuel Pump - 1992 Cherokee |
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BuckSkin ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Location: Poor Farm Points: 403 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 19 Jul 2024 at 3:55pm |
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I have a 1992 Jeep Cherokee with a dead in-tank fuel-pump.
The thing does a have fuel-injection, whether that has any bearing on my question or not. I have good reason to NOT want to put another fuel pump inside the tank; the reason being I need the vehicle to be able to run off of a portable gas-can/tank and not be sitting around with a tank full of old gas. As I see it, fuel pressure is fuel pressure, whether the pump is in the tank or in the back seat, right ? Has anyone else replaced a dead in-tank fuel pump with one not in the tank ? Thanks.
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jaybmiller ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 22164 |
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As long as the 'back seat' fuel pump will have to produce the same pressure(PSI) and flow (GPM) as the 'in tank' pump, it'll work for you. BUT..... there may be a return gas line to the original tank, and a 'vent' line. so now it can get complicated.... Best to see the WSM for the Jeep and confirm what 'plumbing' is actually there ! Have to ask, why not add 'stabilizer' to the tank? I've used 3-5 year old gas before. The BIG thing is to dump in 'water absorbing' alcohol as over time water goes to the bottom of the tank ,and guess where the pump sucks from ?? !!!
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 79894 |
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well, yes and no..... You need fuel pressure, but MOST aftermarket pumps run CONSTANT and maintain a pressure.... MOST autos have the pump controlled by a computer / fuel pressure regulator .... The pump may run off and on momentarily.. You might be able to put something in the back seat, but computer might be trying to "talk" to the pump.. You might have to have a different power supply and regulator to maintain rail pressure..
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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PaulB ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Rocky Ridge Md Points: 4617 |
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Remember when fuel pumps were camshaft driven and mounted on the engine with 2 bolts? On many of the straight 6s it would take no more that 10 minutes to swap a new one in.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
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Lars(wi) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Permian Basin Points: 7036 |
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Yep, I remember the those, switched out a time or two. |
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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BuckSkin ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Location: Poor Farm Points: 403 |
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I just have this big plan in action to keep all the normal tanks bone-dry with a bottom drain always open in case any water gathers and quick-couple the Draw and Return to my portable fuel tank. I got a sack full of dual-tank manual tank selector valves, brand-new with more fittings than a parts store keeps; got them at a swap meet and the man selling them had no idea what they were --- I get a lot of really good stuff that way. Anyway, plan is to install one of these selector valves in every vehicle, one position being the normal tank and the other position being the portable tank. Keep the normal tank bone-dry unless actually going somewhere and move the portable tank from vehicle to vehicle. The return will be quick-coupled as well and the actual tank vent can just vent the empty tank. Not the reason I am doing this, just a side benefit, as I do have a really quick rifle; but, being in Kentucky, we are surrounded by thieving meth-heads and when they stick their hose in one of my tanks, all they will get is air.
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BuckSkin ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Location: Poor Farm Points: 403 |
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You have given me something to chew on there. I will look into figuring out which connection in the in tank pump actually is power to the pump and tie into that to power my not-in-the-tank pump; if the computer wants to do silly things, it will think the in tank pump is doing them when all it is doing is going along for the ride. Ever think about why everything on a vehicle is included in various assemblies ? The pump is not in the tank because that is a better place for it to be; the pump is in the tank so that some little satellite non-union factory somewhere in Kentucky, working these tobacco strippers for minimum wage, can assemble the tank, including pump and whatever else, and send it to the auto manufacturer ready for plug-and-play. Same as for the steering columns; dimmer switches THAT BELONG ON THE FLOOR, wiper switches, head-light switches, even the radio, are contained within the column assembly. Contrary to what was very illegal a few years ago, steering wheels are not mechanically connected to the vehicle in any way; the steering wheel could be mounted back there in the boat trailer and plugged in with a pigtail. All this so minimum wage non-union little factories can assemble this stuff and send the assembled units to the auto manufacturer, sidestepping any union wages.
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HudCo ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Jan 2013 Location: Plymouth Utah Points: 3471 |
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pump is in the tank to keep it from over heating that why they last 200000 miles unless you drive around on emptyallthe time
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Acguywill ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 15 Jan 2024 Location: Vauxhall ab Can Points: 72 |
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Wouldn't a locking gas cap be a lot easier? Or if you really want to fk with them attach the fuel filler to a dummy tank full of used antifreeze and put in a hidden filler to your regular tank. That will teach them a lesson they won't forget especially if they are dumb enough to dump that in their tank.
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BuckSkin ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Location: Poor Farm Points: 403 |
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A few years ago, I found an old rusty Remington 11-48, really rusty, leaning in an old barn. A few shots here and there with Knocker Loose and the old thing would work; except, it worked a bit too good; it would keep firing until the magazine was empty. I am not a shotgun man myself; I always preferred the precision of a rifle. However, I decided such a find could prove useful. I tied the shotgun beside a sapling, barrel pointing straight up. I sat a big old faded-out red plastic 5-gallon jug on the back of an old truck flat in plain view. I Magic-Markered "Lawnmower Gas" on the jug in big letters. I filled the jug about two-thirds full with water, so it wouldn't blow away and so it looked legitimate. I tied a fishing line trip-wire from the bottom of the jug to the trigger of the old 11-48. I had her loaded with those black-hulled Salt rounds like the police use for riot control. Although I never got to witness the actual event, a few times I came home to find my jug laying on the ground and all the empty shells laying around the shotgun. I bet whoever did trip the trigger messed their drawers.
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desertjoe ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Sep 2013 Location: New mexico Points: 13510 |
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Edited by desertjoe - 20 Jul 2024 at 3:48am |
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jaybmiller ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 22164 |
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'forget' and leave 3/4 full red gas can marked 'hitest' outside one night... whoever steals it won't be back, least not too soon.. now what makes that gas hitest is the 2 pounds of SUGAR you mixed in with the gas.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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ac fleet ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 Jan 2014 Location: Arrowsmith, ILL Points: 2311 |
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dont know about jeep but on fords and chevys the pump dont run all the time PLUS there are return lines , vapor lines and vent lines all runnin to the in tank pump mounts.
it would be cheeper to convert to lp !
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http://machinebuildersnetwork.com/
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iowallis ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 04 Jun 2017 Location: North Iowa Points: 336 |
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In one of the old car forums I am on there was a discussion on how to dispose of old/stale/varnished gas that is sometimes found when purchasing a vintage car. Suggestion such as setting it out in pans and letting it evaporate, mix some with good gas and use in a small engine etc... Best answer was to put it in old jugs labeled "mower gas", go to Wal-Mart, park with your tailgate down, go shopping for an hour, come back and your problem is solved as the gas will be gone. As for as the OP's original question. Having a container of gas in the occupied area of a vehicle isn't, in my opinion, a great idea. If they are intent on doing this anyways, how about a gas tank from a newer boat that has a fuel injection engine? The pump and required lines might already be with the tank.
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 2005 |
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Sounds as if the vehicle does not see a lot of usage. Simplest solution is to run non ethanol gasoline in the tank which has a much longer storage life than the alcohol based crap we are blessed with at the retail pumps. There is more to it than just maintaining fuel pressure in the system Chrysler used. Albeit simple overall, the original system worked quite well. IIRC the fuel tank pump does operate full time after the crank sensor establishes engine rotation, but the fuel pump's rpm's are varied/modulated by the engine ECM to maintain fuel pressure(s) dependent upon engine load. Again, IIRC, high engine power requirements spec was 62psi, idle was about 26psi and after a 20 minute or so leakdown with the engine shut down, 22psi measured on the fuel rail. Very reliable system overall. I had a couple XJ Cherokee vehicles with the 4.0ltr engine and ran both over 350K on the clocks before the rear spring perches and floors rotted out rendering both unsafe to drive.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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desertjoe ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Sep 2013 Location: New mexico Points: 13510 |
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I been following ole Buckskin's thread here,,,and I'm thinking his real aim is to teach those thieving pot heads from stealing his Jeep's fuel plus any others,,,,? I really loved the old shotgun/gas can lesson you gave them gas thieves,,, ![]() ![]() I'm kinda leaning towards the use of the "portable" gas can for the newer fuel injected marine engines,,,IF those tanks have a hi pressure pump that will satisfy the Jeep's computor,,,but Buckskin you have to realize the fuel tank in back seat could be dangerous for your family,,,? SOOooo,, you might be approacing the real issue from the wrong angle,,,How about we concentrate on the fuel storage tanks instead,,? Years ago,,when I was a young un,,,I was riding around with a friend and his car needed some fuel, so he drives out to a farm house and he drives up to 3 overhead tanks and he fills up from the middle tank pretty as you please,,I was scared to death, crouched down in back seat,,,A week later he does the same thing and again drives up to the middle tank but,,,,but,,,we only get halfway back to town when the car dies and we have to push the friggin car back to town to a service station that was open all night. The station guy tells us the gas tank is plumb of,,,,,burner fuel,,,,WHAT,,,,? The farmer had switched the tanks,,,,, ![]() ![]() After draining all that burner fuel, my friend pawns some stuff to the garage dude for enough fuel to get on home. He never goes back to the farm house because he don't know which tank has the gas or burner fuel,,,????
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BuckSkin ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Location: Poor Farm Points: 403 |
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Thanks for all this information. I guess my best bet for this vehicle is to put a sump-drain on the bottom of the tank with a down-hill line and cut-off near the trailer hitch and just drain the thing when I am not using it. Another idea you put in my head = almost everything on the place is diesel --- I wish it all was diesel, even the Stihl chainsaws and the weedeater. Having diesel to pour in something is never a problem. Non-ethanol gas is a different matter. I only ever use non-ethanol for all the small engines around here. The nearest actual stand-alone non-ethanol pump is way over in the next town; and, being at one of those modern computer-controlled convenience stores, not the handiest place to fill up a few jugs. I am always scraping the bottom of the barrel for non-ethanol gas. The solution you have provided = put the drain on the Cherokee tank, handy back there near the trailer hitch. In the busiest part of the day, when nobody notices such things, slide down there to the non-ethanol pump and fill her to the brim. Then, when I need a gallon or so, get it from the Cherokee. Of course, this only works after I buy/install a new fuel-pump. |
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BuckSkin ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Location: Poor Farm Points: 403 |
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For everyone who actually thought I was dumb enough to put this in the back seat, I was only using that phrase to express my point. That being said, there are a few trucks here that still have the fuel tank in the cab, behind the seat.
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desertjoe ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Sep 2013 Location: New mexico Points: 13510 |
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Hey Buckskin,,,,The thought of you doing such a thing never crossed my mind,,I just kept waiting for the punchline,,,, ![]() ![]() I'm still giggling about the old shotgun lesson you done on the gas thief,,,, ![]() ![]() Besides,,I also don't think your real purpose was your concern about the longivity or the purity of the gas in the Jeep tank,,,,, ![]() ![]() AND,,,my suggestion is to bring that old shotgun and the can you used out in the field,,,and set them up right next to the Jeep "unloaded" mind you,,,,your problem will forever be cured,,,,, ![]() ![]() I'm thinking it would surely be an interesting day to follow you around,,,,!!
![]() Edited by desertjoe - 22 Jul 2024 at 8:39am |
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 2005 |
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Should you install a petcock into the fuel tank yet have extended times between withdrawing fuel, let a couple of ounces flow into a clean glass jar and settle a couple of minutes so you can ascertain whether there is water present or not in the fuel. Don't install the petcock in the bottom of the tank at all where water will collect. Condensate water can build up faster than most will think if in a steel tank such as that "XJ" series Jeep has.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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BuckSkin ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Location: Poor Farm Points: 403 |
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I don't understand --- why not ? I would assume that would be exactly what you wanted to drain out.
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 2005 |
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I understood you to mean you would use the Cherokee as your bulk storage tank for non ethanol gasoline.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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BuckSkin ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Location: Poor Farm Points: 403 |
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Right you are. Your advice put the gears in my head to turning and I will now put TWO drains in the tank; one a bit higher for drawing off mower gas and the other in dead bottom to drain off water accumulation. As for condensation in tanks, I grew up in an old time full service filling station and I know all about it raining inside gas tanks. I have seen and heard it all --- and still see and hear it. Old Farmer Brown will have an old grain truck sitting back in the fence-row; been sitting there since last grain season. It had maybe two quarts of gas in a huge steel step-tank when he parked it. He will come to the filling station and get a couple five-gallon cans of gas and go dump it in, thoroughly stirring up all that water and sludge that has been sitting there fermenting all year. Once the thing starts, it will go about a hundred feet and die, never to start again. Along comes his brother-in-law, born with a wrench in his hand, and checks things out. "Where did you get this gas" "Down there at BuckSkin's filling station" "Well, he sold you some bad gas -- this is full of water"
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 2005 |
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I too remember well sticking tanks during the day with water paste to both ascertain quantity, and if moisture needing pumped.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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BuckSkin ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Location: Poor Farm Points: 403 |
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Our "stick" was longer than the entire building. It resided in a long horizontal pipe about head high. Every night at a certain time, somebody would go from pump to pump with a clip-board and flashlight and record that string of numbers that was akin to reading an electric meter, except the numbers were tiny and there were a lot more of them. Then, we would make the rounds from tank to tank, two of us, if two of us were there, one carrying and handling that long stick and the other lifting away the metal cover-plates and then removing those double-latched metal lids that exposed the pipe coming from the tank. We always had this tiny jar of blue paste that we would stick our finger in and smear a streak on the bottom couple inches of the stick; if there were moisture present, the paste would turn pink. As the long stick came back up out of the ground, the flashlight holder would make note of the fuel level - in inches. We had this chart on the wall by the phone that converted the inches to gallons, a column for each size tank. The refinery took this water business serious. If you found water, first, before calling anyone, you made a longer smear of paste and measured how many inches of water. They had a special truck they would send that could suck from the bottom of the tank. It was very rare, even in heinously humid Kentucky, where you can cut the air with a knife and we would feel weird if our clothes were not stuck to us, to ever find water; but, way every once in a while, we did. It is a wonder our stick survived; as, my father was forever finding uses for it at the farm and at the house; and, other people were forever borrowing it for like uses as well. When I hauled crude oil, we didn't have a stick. We had this long metal tape on a reel with a very heavy plumb-bob of a thing on the end. You lowered the weight down into the tank until you felt it touch bottom. If you wanted to live, you never got on top of a tank; as, crude oil is more salt water than oil and the tops of the tanks will rust away from the inside out; they may look solid as rock and be thin as tissue. |
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 2005 |
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Exactly the way we did it also. Little numbers in the pumps totaled gallons dispensed and was balanced against inventory in tank(s) to check for loss, or leakage. Still have tubes of paste at the shop as have bulk tanks but they have fuel level gauges and a yard stick suffices for dipping to check for water. That said they do have filters and changed annually with condensate captured/retained by them, and hasn't been a problem. Never was around crude oil production myself but "fracking" uses a lot of salt water in the process of extracting oil.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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BuckSkin ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Location: Poor Farm Points: 403 |
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A thought just occurred to me about the "stick".
That thing was no more than an inch square, yet terribly long, and WOOD. It got used and abused for generations and never did break. Where are you going to find any clear knot-free wood today that is long enough to saw out such a stick that isn't going to break the first time you use it ? This "sustainable yield" crap of today, it won't even make a decent yard-stick.
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 2005 |
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You can still get them but most are plastic. Some are marked in both inches, and gallons so only usable on a tank it was designed for. We had two; one for inspection and only used during those times, and one used daily which was much more worn. Wood is available also, but I don't know the genus. Nowadays around here, everything has electronic interstitial monitoring by mostly Veeder-Root systems. I installed plenty of them before retirement. There is also always a manual stick for the tanks on site as per mandates also.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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DaveKamp ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5715 |
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Yep, modern Veeder-Roots have sensors for that moisture, and not far from the dump zone is a long plastic tube that the dipstick is stored in. I have a piece of broken dipstick out in my shed... works great for measuring overhead clearance... before I smack something tall into the pole barn roof ![]() The '92 XJ's injection system is constant flow, rail-regulator with bypass return to tank. The pump IS cooled by fuel, and it'll survive a little water, but it's very hard on the pump to do so. There's an inlet sock on the pump, pickup sits in the bottom as expected. You don't need to 'drop' the tank to change the pump- You can flip up and remove the lower seat bottom, eyeball the location of the tank top, and chain-drill the floor pan with a depth stop, lift the piece out, and remove the tank plumbing and lid right there. As many have said, they will run for a LONG time, and they weren't assembled that way for production efficiency, they were done so because the LUBRICATION of the pump bushings is also accomplished by being in fuel. Water is hard on it, because the bronze bushing material becomes a bit incompatible with the armature steel in water... the wear occurs, and they start to get noisy and drag, which doesn't affect pressure much at idle or light load, but when you ask it to work, the pump's internal drag starts limiting the pressure available at the rail. The rail regulator is normally bypassing, eventually flow becomes so weak, that the regulator is fully closed off (no bypass) and any sag in electrical load now reduces fuel pressure, which causes injectors to either not fire, or not fire and reseat properly. Another way to resolve the problem here, is disconnect the fuel filler, and pipe it into a small under-floor can (an old fire extinguisher, or a piece of pipe with a cap) filled with mineral spirits and lacquer thinner. Move the 'real' filler to someplace hidden... The 11-48... long action... excellent machine. Mine has a very long barrel, full choke, fires long magnums, and will knock down a goose at a LONG LONG way. Don't use it for shooting clays unless you're on 'cleanup', because it's pattern stays tight for a whole lot further than an average over-under clays gun. |
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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