This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity.
The Forum Parts and Services Unofficial Allis Store Tractor Shows Serial Numbers History
Forum Home Forum Home > Other Topics > Shops, Barns, Varmints, and Trucks
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Generator Exercise

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5620
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Generator Exercise
    Posted: 13 Feb 2019 at 9:56pm
Well Fellers...

over the last four days, i've exercised my emergency power system pretty thoroughly.  This last storm's aggressive winds and ice took down five utility poles in one string two miles south, broke off a sixth one a mile down.  Drifting snow swallowed up the road in the area of the five down, totally covering them in several places.  Utility men couldn't get to them 'cause the road was drifted in good, and the county wouldn't take a machine in there 'cause there were lines down... it was an interesting pickle.

In the meantime, off in the distance was the steadfast, gentle grumble of a 331 cubic inch inline-six sipping propane gas, and filling my home with happiness of light and warmth.

truth be told, it wasn't eventless... amidst the winds and galloping wires, there were plenty of blips and snaps... which is not good for some kinds of machines.  I lost a network switch, a sump pump motor, and very possibly a refrigerator (jury is still out).

The big red machine was 'contracted' by Consolidated Diesel Electric, it's really a re-badged KATO that was fitted with a stupid overburdon of protective pinball-machine technology for a brainless government contract.  I stripped off the crap, whittled it down to something that'll actually WORK.  It has a Hercules JXLD driving a Kato dynamo.  Engine is magneto ignition, an Impco-clone mixer, a Garrettson KN demand regulator, a 3/4" pipe and hand valve, fed by a 10psi to 11"w.c. regulator outside the shed wall, with a 10psi copper feeder coming from a pair of 1000-gallon tanks.  Governance is done by TWO gadgets... a mechanical Hoof-Pierce driven by a dedicated belt off one groove of the front sheave... then there's a Woodward APECS electronic (PID type) unit that measures engine speed by 'listening' to the pitch of ring-gear teeth through a reluctance coil in the bellhousing.  the Hoof-Pierce is set to run it in the general vicinity, and the APECs puts it within a half hz of 60... I did this so it'll start with crank, run with no battery power, and build itself back up... and once it had enough power, it'd improve it's stability.

It burns about 2 gallons of propane an hour when I'm running a 'typical' house load plus kitchen stove, or dishwasher, or laundry.  When I need it, it'll pull up to 50kw, but mostly, it sees no more than 15kw, with motor start surges blipping it every so often.

Once that's all done, I switch over to a much smaller Kohler liquid cooled four cylinder 7.5kw unit of early 60's vintage, it's fed by it's OEM dual-fuel arrangement, using identical pipe, feeder, and hand valve arrangement, from same pipe as feeding the Big Red machine.  It pulls about a half-gallon of propane an hour under the lightest load I can get.  With furnace and refrigerators, it goes to about two-thirds a gallon per hour, and at max load, a gallon and a quarter.

I have a third unit... currently a 15kw three-phase machine, that I can bring on line, I usually use it for testing machine tools on 3-ph before converting them to run on single, but I can start this one and feed the house with two of the three legs for 10kw, but I rarely do.  It runs on propane as well.

All three machines have two mufflers in series, separated by about eight feet of pipe, then exhaust out through the wall of my generator shed.  The shed has ample ventilation, has emergency lighting so that it's easy to get to, and work on, when conditions are really, really bad.

There's a half-dozen 4D truck batteries in there, on float chargers, that I can use to start either generator, and another that powers the emergency lighting. 

Suffice to say, when I want electricity, I can make it, and I have plenty of options.  I've had lots of people make incredibly uneducated comments about my setup, but with this ice storm, I certainly got my money and time's worth out of it.  Wink
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
john(MI) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: SE MI
Points: 9263
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john(MI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 12:02am
I'm gonna have to save up for a whole house power unit with auto transfer.  I have nat gas so it shouldn't be too expensive to run. 

Do you have a load tester or access to one?  At work they would bring one in every few years to make the generators put out max for a few hours.  We had two, the biggest was only 45kw.  The smaller one had a John Deere engine on it and I was always worried about it failing!  It ran the Doppler Radar and I was really surprised that it held up.  We had to put a new turbo on it once, but other than that is was just routine service.  There were two 500 gallon tanks sitting beside it so the building was the secondary containment.  The threshold was about 18" high going into the building.  The main one had a 1000 gallon diesel Convault tank.  Oddest thing I had ever seen when we got that.  I had never seen a concrete tank before. 

They both ran to UPS units so we never lost power, even at switch over.  The batteries were changed out every 3 to 4 years, so I always had plenty of batteries around the house and so did all my friends!

An interesting part of my job.  They ran automatically once a week and once a month we would switch the load onto them for a couple hours.


Anyone got any recommendations for a whole house unit?


Edited by john(MI) - 14 Feb 2019 at 12:03am
D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446
Back to Top
shameless dude View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2017
Location: east NE
Points: 13611
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shameless dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 2:43am
John...I gots a 90 KW genny for sale that runs on natural gas!
Back to Top
desertjoe View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Location: New mexico
Points: 13353
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote desertjoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 3:36am
 Hey Dave Kamp,,,sounds like you gots every tangent covered with all your systems,,,,you must be like me as we cannot seem to get the gas company to invest in a Nat gas line to service our side of the county road. I have been down the road talkin to all the neighbors on my side of the road to agree to tie into the proposed Nat gas line IF the gasco will install it,,,,but most I've gotten to agree is 2 of us from the 10 on this side of the road,,,,,dang,,,dang,,,,!!! Propane here is so dang much more expensive than Nat gas even tho it is produced it right here in town,,!! Them dang distributors is getttin rich off us,,,,,!!!!
Back to Top
CTuckerNWIL View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: NW Illinois
Points: 22807
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 9:30am
I had enough of the power outage to last me for years and it was only off here for 9 hours. My neighbors, including my daughter lost power for 27 hours.
 Seems the first thing I miss when the power goes out is the water. it sure is nice to have it when you turn the handle of the faucet.
 My one neighbor has about 90 sows and a mess of pigs, from newborn to nearly butchering size and he had his portable genny running the well the first day. He shut it off at midnight and woke up to 6*F and the genny was so stiff it wouldn't turn over with the rope. He hauled it up the road a few miles to a guys shop for a couple hours to get it warmed up and get water back running for the animals.
 LOTS of extra work for anybody with animals, when the power is off.
http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
Back to Top
chaskaduo View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2016
Location: Twin Cities
Points: 5203
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chaskaduo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 10:01am
Joe, seems everybody is get rich off of us, except us.
1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp
Back to Top
shameless dude View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2017
Location: east NE
Points: 13611
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shameless dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 10:05am
yep....it's our money....and they want it!
Back to Top
Ted J View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Location: La Crosse, WI
Points: 18657
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ted J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 11:07pm
NO,,,,,,,,,,it's our money and they're TAKING it....  n,,,,,  n,, they say it's LEGAL....
"Allis-Express"
19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5620
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 12:07am
John-  a 'whole house' unit...
There's lots of options, and lots of features... and there's a whole host of 'gotchas that come along with selecting something appropriate and sensible.

Joe's note about NG, and your note about Diesel, are an important point:  choice of fuel is something one needs to be very, very concious of.

Unless one has a stack of high-pressure flasks and an LNG delivery truck, Natural gas comes in via pipeline.  In most cases, NG coming in is a fairly reliable source of fuel for an emergency generator... unless you live in a siesmic zone... or areas where prairie fires blast through.  There's emergency shutdowns in NG distribution lines that close off flow when there's disasters... to protect against explosions and fires where piping may be slightly damaged.  (in serious damage, excess-flow valves in mains and distribution branches detect when there's way too much flow, and shut the flow off).    Aside from that, NG IS subject to variation in fuel quality, and when there's work done on lines, air bubbles can appear which will stall out a generator, furnace, etc., and make it very difficult to start until the line has been 'purged'.  Finally, the BTU output of NG is the lowest of common fuels, so one must lower their power expectations, and spend a little time making tuning adjustments to get the best results. Aside from those factors, it's a great fuel source that, as long as the line isn't shut down, is endless.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5620
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 12:13am
Propane is what suits my situation best- my furnace and water heater burn propane, and there's an extra 1000-gallon tank tied to the house tank (originally fueled two grain drying bins)... so I've got 1600 gallons of fuel capacity... when full, that's a WHOLE LOTTA run time for ANY of my generators.  Propane is a byproduct of petroleum production, which means that when refineries are creating lots of gasoline, diesel, etc., there will be a large volume of propane that needs a marketplace.  As a result, the price is very inexpensive when there's lots of refining, but not much propane demand.  Next... it's basically 'pure'... there's no 'formulation'... it's C3H8, with a little bit of odorant added so you can smell a leak.  It produces a fair share more BTU per volume than NG...  but not quite as much as say... gasoline.  There is no storage degradation with Propane- leave it in that bottle for 500 years, and it'll be just as good as the day it went in.  
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5620
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 12:16am
Next is gasoline, and it's readily available just about anywhere, any time, as long as, of course, the power at your local filling station is not out.  Many folks carry it in 5 gallon cans, but in rural environments, an elevated or ground-mounted tank works.  i've also used a 100-gallon boat fuel tank placed inside a trailer, filled it at the station, and then used a transfer pump to fill a 'nurse tank' for a generator.  Gasoline comes in grades, and has a rather limited shelf-life.  If there's ethanol in it, it will absorb moisture out of the air, and make the fuel pretty funky.  It is easier to handle (in terms of transportation) than Propane.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5620
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 12:20am
then there's Diesel fuel.  It has MORE thermal energy (BTU) per volume than Gasoline, and diesel engines have a capacity of higher thermodynamic efficiency than a spark-ignition liquid or gaseous engine... and Diesel is generally very safe to store, will not explode if leaks.  Unfortunately, in the winter, Diesel requires substantial attention in order to get it warm enough to flow into a generator.

The other disadvantage, is that spark-ignited NG, Propane, and Gasoline engines can be fitted up to use multiple fuels.  it takes a little adjustment usually to make a switch, but there's more flexibility.  You WON'T be running a diesel on gasoline, propane or NG very easily... and Diesel (particularly if it's biodiesel) will produce some pretty awesome gack in the fuel filters.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5620
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 12:30am
Now, picking a 'whole house'...

that's a very 'relative' term.  MY house is all LED-illumination, and I have it set up so that my most-critical-circuits (well, sump pumps, refrigerators, basic lighting, furnace, etc) are on dedicated feeders that transfer independantly of the NON-critical loads (like air compressor, Air Conditioning condenser/compressor, machine tools, big shop and yard lighting, etc.).

A generator needs to be sized appropriate for the 'continuous' load you expect to pull, and enough additional size to pull the 'start surge' for any heavy (motorized) loads you expect will need to run.

A generator must not be sized 'too big'.  EVERY generator has what's called a 'base fuel consumption'... that's what it burns just to run at NO LOAD.  The engine is moving cooling air, operating it's valves, gears, pistons and rods... spinning the generator armature and it's cooling fan... that all takes fuel, even when NO electricity is being generated.  Next... the generator needs to generate a LITTLE bit of power just to create the magnetic field (excitation) that makes it capable of generating output power.

The rule is very simple-  BIG generators have a HIGH base fuel consumption.  Small generators have a small base consumption.  Once you have either one running, you NEED to put a load on it to get any sort of efficiency... it's like owning a business, and being open...  If you owned say... a bicycle shop, you'd have a staff hired, lights and air conditioning, and those bills appear even if your doors are NEVER open... so the more you can keep those doors open, and carry product out the door, the more effiicient your business is.  Generators are the same way... so:

Don't buy a 1200w generator and expect it to be able to run your 'whole house', unless your 'whole house' has been stripped down to just 10 6w LED lamps and a common refrigerator/freezer with 600w compressor.  Don't buy a 90kw generator to run those 10 6w lamps and a 600w refrigerator.

IF your house living loads are high during certain (laundry, cooking, air conditioning, etc) times, and extremely low on others, switch between two generators.  ;-)
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5620
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 12:35am
Build a shed, elevate it enough so flooding, ground moisture, etc, won't rot the floor.  install good ventilation that keeps weather and varmints out, and bring in a sensible fuel supply.  Trench at least two conduits from the shed to the vicinity of your main panel.  Add 12vdc lighting on a switch, and put a float charger on a timer, on the battery.  Use lots of battery capacity... if the 'oem' battery was a lawn-and-garden, go to a Group 27... or two of 'em, in parallel... so you  know that you'll ALWAYS have plenty of battery power.  Add an easily-startable heating system that will run without power (or on batteries) enough to warm up the shed to assist getting started in extreme cold, and/or perform repairs when there's real problems and bad weather/darkness going on.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5620
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 12:39am
Air cooled generators are usually NOT heavy duty... and they're noisy, even when well-shrouded.    When not being used, mice love to build nests inside the cowlings.  Usually, these are equipped with 2-pole generators, which means that the generator armature must spin at 3600rpm in order to create 60hz output.

Liquid cooled engines are quieter.  Frequently their generators are wound with 4-pole sequence (making it a 1800rpm generator) or 6 pole (1200rpm).  Running slower makes it particularly nicely quiet.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5620
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 12:43am
Whole house generators from big box stores are not only air-cooled screamers, they're out in the weather, and difficult to maintain in comparison to say... sitting down at a stool in my generator shed.

Fancy generators have fancy engine controls.  This means several things-  first, it means you don't really have to be involved in the maintenance of your generator (bad), it also means that when the processor board controlling the generator's operation gets cooked by a downed wire or lightning strike, the generator is unable to pick up any load.

It is for this reason that I prefer the old relay-based (antique) controller concept of 'operator start, operator watch' philosophy.  it means you're not there, looking at the sight glass to determine oil levels and watch for governor problems.

As I noted above- ALL my generators will start generating with a totally dead battery... just step on the crank a couple times, and they'll start.  Probably not gonna find that on a Diesel, as they take a bit more donkey to spin it past TDC by hand.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5620
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 12:46am
IF you want a whole-house unit...
IF you live in an area that tends to get cold in winter...
IF your house has hydronic heat...

Go with a liquid cooled unit, run it off of the best fuel choice for your locality and prevailing circumstances, and get it installed in a shed you can stand up in, and work in.  Tap into the cooling system, and use that 'waste heat' to heat the house, the garage floor, etc.,, so you get double-duty from the fuel you're burning.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5620
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 9:24am
Test loads... load testing... load bank...

It's not a mandatory thing to do regular load testing, but it's a good idea to understand how it can be done, and why you'd wanna do it every so often. 

When I do load testing, I don't use a fancy, expensive, made-for-purpose device.  I use 'indigenous ancillary resources'.  simple old portable electric heaters and a clamp-on ammeter work nicely.  It doesn't take too many electric space heaters to put a heckuva hurt on a generating plant, and they're generally predictable with respect to their nameplate ratings, and usually, they've got switchable ranges, so you can 'step through' different loads.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
Tbone95 View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Location: Michigan
Points: 11380
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 11:55am
Holy .
 
 
Back to Top
tadams(OH) View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Location: Jeromesville, O
Points: 9553
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tadams(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Tbone95 Tbone95 wrote:

Holy .
 
 X 2
Back to Top
DMiller View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 29233
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 1:33pm
Mine is a 1997 Thermalarc Gas powered welder/generator. 10KW, will run the well and shop heat, secure the shop heat awhile will run the house basics, refrigerators, freezer, they cycle off fire off the ground source, 5KW. DO NOT do laundry or wash dishes, do not run more than need to as to keeping the elements at bay. Cycle as needed those items as are a must.
Back to Top
john(MI) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: SE MI
Points: 9263
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john(MI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 1:40pm
Thanks Dave,  A few things I hadn't thought about.  Maybe I should just get a pto unit and run it off my little 5020 diesel, parked in the barn. 
D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446
Back to Top
Stan IL&TN View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Elvis Land
Points: 6730
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stan IL&TN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 1:46pm
Longest we went without power was 10 days back in the 70's and no generator. We had a kerosene heater and kerosene lamps. It was not fun. For my ouwn home in town the longest time without power was in the 90's and was without power for three days. That was not fun but we had heat and water and lighting was by Coleman. After that I decided maybe a generator would be good insurance in never needing it, so we got one. 7500 watt continuous air cooled screamer with electric start. It's loud so I point it at my neighbors. I keep 15 gallons of gas on hand for use in the mowers so it gets cycled through on a regular basis. Good for a day or two running the unit. I have used it twice myself and let a friend borrow it last year when they lost power. I pull it out every summer and run a gallon of gas through it then change the oil and filter. Been a good unit as a backup for us.
1957 WD45 dad's first AC

1968 one-seventy

1956 F40 Ferguson
Back to Top
DMiller View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 29233
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 2:43pm
Just went thru a short 6 hours power down due to ice and tree limbs. Our REA is relatively quick on getting power restored. Have seen up to four days no electric. With all the electric ignition crap and gas control solenoids is hard to get anything that will light off without power. I am already looking to get a wood stove for the house, plumb the stack thru the wall and hang triple wall flue outside. Game for a electric blower set up but do want something that will stand alone during power drops.
Back to Top
wide View Drop Down
Silver Level
Silver Level


Joined: 29 Dec 2018
Location: north iowa
Points: 169
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wide Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 8:57pm
Ha, this is what I think of when I see this "generator exercise" topic:
pedgen by vwfatmobile, on Flickr

 I built a peddle generator out of a tredmill motor
and an exercise bike someone put on the curb.
 It's  changed alot since this pic, has the newer/smaller tredmill motor
and a diamond plate cover.
 I'll have to put it on the lawn again this summer and take another pic.
It's has wild DC output so the faster you peddle the higher the volts.
 Which works great with an osteriser blender, faster you peddle the faster it goes.
You decide puree or liquify?
 Easily controlled by computer power supplies or the newer wall cubes used to charge phones.
 All set for margaritas and videos during the next blackout.Smile
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5620
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by john(MI) john(MI) wrote:

Thanks Dave,  A few things I hadn't thought about.  Maybe I should just get a pto unit and run it off my little 5020 diesel, parked in the barn. 


PTO generators on tractors are handy solutions when you need to put a whole lotta power somewhere remote, for a short period of time... like... a grain bin that lost it's utility connection, and you need to get it up and running for an unload fast.

Using it to power a farm is possible, but has some detractions... first, because you're running the tractor engine through PTO gearboxes, shafts, and then a step-up gearbox, there's lots of mechanical efficiency loss, so they chew up substantially more fuel than a normal generator.  Next is that the governor on a tractor is a whole lot less precise than the governor on a generating plant...  you could see anywhere from 48 to 70hz under load variations where an 'average' generator will be from 57-63hz... and a 'tight' one would be 59-61...

...and of course, you'd have to have it in a good position and ready-to-hook-up when an outage occurs.  Frequently, guys park 'em in the weeds and throw a plastic tote over top for protection, so they're often not-well-maintained... but I've used 'em in the field (frequently, powering a welder, grinder, and lights)... so they have more-than-one use.

IMO, the best 'bang for buck' is a Kohler or Onan liquid cooled stationary unit from the 40's through the 60's... not hard to find, easy to work on, and will start with hand-crank... and then fit it up for your choice of spark-ignited fuel(s).
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5620
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 11:40pm
Wide-

When I was on a dynomometer, I could pedal out 580w for 12 seconds... and hold down 260w for 4 minutes before passing out.

Here's olympic track cyclist Robert Forstemann pulling the 700w resistive load of an ordinary toaster for one minute:


It's important when considering emergency power, to realize not just how much power one uses, but also, HOW that load appears on the line.  I have TWO 1/3hp sump pumps, and one 1/10hp pump.  The 1/3hp Zoller M85 pulls about 9A to run, but peaks at 17 or so when STARTING... and it runs for about 7 seconds.  the 1/10hp pump pulls about 3.5A, and runs for about a minute and a half.

if you do the math, you'll see that the smaller pump is asking more power overall (less, but for incredibly longer time), but in actuality, the smaller pump puts a substantially lighter load on the generator.

What's most important, is going through the house and determining what is REALLY critical, and what is comfort, and what is totally unnecessary in an emergency... and shedding AS MUCH unnecessary load as you possibly can.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
Brian Jasper co. Ia View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Prairie City Ia
Points: 10508
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2019 at 9:48pm
I don't regret at all installing a standby generator. I used to do it the not so kosher way of back feeding through a welder outlet in the shop and turning the main off at the meter. It worked, but with only a 5K portable, the furnace didn't like it very well. Went through two control boards the first winter we lived here. I got a Briggs & Stratton branded unit that produces 12K on LP. Like Dave says, one drawback is a lightening strike took out the auto start/switch over function. It has a manual start and the transfer can be switched manually so it wasn't a total loss. The plus was very reasonable cost, GE branded alternator/electronics, looks like a large central air unit, is fully protected from mice and weather, all sides of the enclosure are easily removed, and can be serviced sitting on a stool. Having a large back yard I was able to put it away from the house to cut down on noise/exhaust smell.  
It's big enough to run everything normally except the A/C and dryer, or the air and dryer with everything else off. Worthwhile trade as far as I could see for lower purchase price/base operating cost.


Edited by Brian Jasper co. Ia - 16 Feb 2019 at 10:04pm
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5620
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 10:16am
Yep, those systems are 'clean looking' installs.  The electronics are a weak spot... the other one (which I had to 'look out for' for my neighbor)  was that drifting snow piles up over them... and if they start when covered, will overheat downright immediately.  One way to contend with this, is to put it in a 3-sided  covered shelter, with air gap underneath...  wind will blow through, but it'll be moving fast enough so that it won't be as likely to drift over.  (I still like mine enclosed in a room that I can work on them when it's ugly...)

Backfeeding IS dangerous... generally illegal, etc., but I won't throw stones at anyone for doing what they HAVE to do to keep their home and family safe, AS LONG AS they recognize the danger, and very INTIMATELY lock-tag out the main feeders, so linemen don't get killed.

Proper transfer switches are expensive to buy and install... but an economical, safe, and LEGAL way of doing rapid transfer, is to install a BREAKER INTERLOCK KIT, and a dedicated backfeed breaker.  Here's how it works:
You install a circuit breaker who's purpose is to provide feed INTO your breaker panel from your generator.  Wiring to this breaker can be as simple as a range cord to your generator.

A sliding plate, installed on the breaker panel, blocks your generator breaker anytime the MAIN breaker is ON.  When the GENERATOR is engaged, that same plate prevents the MAN from being thrown.  The plate, therefore, provides exclusive interlock.  One of the issues with this concept,  however, is that it doesn't limit what load your generator could wind up pulling... you could easily overload a small generator, so one must turn off breakers to all devices that are unnecessary.

Another way, is to install a totally separate system of outlets for your generator... it consists of installing receptacles alongside your furnace, refrigerator, sump pump... and wiring them all to a small breaker panel, with a stout extension cord that plugs into your generator.  When your power goes out, start the generator, then go to each item, and unplug them from the 'regular' outlet, and move it to the 'emergency' outlet.  This means your emergency power system is totally isolated from the house.  There's several advantages here... cost (fairly inexpensive) simplicity (easy for anyone to understand) and finally... the ONLY loads it services, are those which you've installed receptacles for, so you won't accidentally overload anything.

"Big box" home-type systems frequently come with an 'emergency subpanel'... it's a gadget you mount alongside your existing breaker panel.  You pick the circuits that NEED to be powered in an emergency, and you move those to the E-panel.  Then you feed from the main panel to the E-panel.  When power goes out, the generator ONLY connects those circuits that are on the E-panel- everything else is isolated, as is the main power service.

The biggest, is just a straight transfer switch.  It goes downstream of the meter, but upstream of the utility panel.  Most are automatic (when power is out, it switches to generator, and when power is back, it switches to utility).  Code generally requires that ALL CONTACTS of the transfer switch must be rated to carry full current of the utility feeder, regardless of what the panel or your house demand will be...  so, as an abitrary (and somewhat extreme example) if you've got a 50A breaker on your house panel, and a 20A generator, and the power service and meter are 450A, you MUST use a 450A transfer switch.  USUALLY, though, there's an EXCEPTION...   IF you have a fuseable disconnect switch after the meter, but before the transfer switch, the switch need only be rated for the fuse limit.  So you have the 450A feeder going to a 50A switch, now your transfer switch only needs to be 50A.

I'll tell you the future here: Someday, what will happen, is that house circuit panels will have the bottom third-or-so of the busbars SEPARATED from the top, and there'll be a double-pole, double throw contactor with auxiliary feed.  When you wire your home, you'll connect everything normally, EXCEPT that your 'critical circuits' will be connected to breakers in the BOTTOM of the panel.  You'll wire your emergency power source (generator, inverter, whatever) to the auxiliary feed.  Also included will be a pair of current/voltage sensor modules (one on each leg of your supply) and a simple circuit that is used to signal a generator to start.  When power goes out, a pair of contacts will close to signal a power fail condition.  the generator will be given a 'go' signal...

(Let's see if Square-D, Siemens, GE, etc are listening... Geek
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
KJCHRIS View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 21 Dec 2015
Location: WC Iowa
Points: 804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KJCHRIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 1:10pm
My backup is a Win-Power 35KW PTO unit I got at auction in the mid '80's, it has ran the entire bldg. place. But needs either a D17 or 180 size tractors to do that. I hook it up every fall and spring. Fire it up and go in shop turn on all lights, air comp. and start welding. The electrical breaker panel powers everything on place except house. It came from local REC. Is odd in that it has a 3 lug single lever disconnect, lets me cut all 3 wires to the mainline/ transformer box. Also as was recommended by REC, have double throw switch at meter / transformer box this will cut farm off from REC lines & also allow generator to power house. Which hopefully gets built next summer. Then am done with 180 mile round trip to farm & staying in old camper while there. 2 years ago I Retired from 40+ years of AG / Truck & Heavy Equip. fixing. 
The Longest it was in continuous use for me was the '91 Halloween ice storm for 8 days. Didn't have the fancy disconnects then, just transformer pole and both wires busted on ground, disconnected wires at meter and started generating.. Called REC and told them what I'd done. Then went to work in town. Most recently farm Renter used it for his farm 4-5 days about 6 years ago after ice storm.
Favorite tractor on it is D15 gas.  Sounds so nice running it. Gen & D15 are hitched in shed waiting to go. Also comes in handy at old building sights to run bins for unloading instead of paying monthly minimum to have power for a few days each year.
AC 200, CAH, AC185D bareback, AC 180D bareback, D17 III, WF. D17 Blackbar grill, NF. D15 SFW. Case 1175 CAH, Bobcat 543B,
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.


Help Support the
Unofficial Allis Forum