| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Ukfarmer 
Bronze Level
Joined: 08 Nov 2015
Location: Devon,UK
Points: 12
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: G diesel conversion info needed please.
Posted: 08 Nov 2015 at 6:51am |
|
Hello All,
I have a 1949 G, which I plan to use for hoeing weeds in field crops.
The original petrol engine runs fine, but, here in the UK, the petrol will be quite costly over a season.
I understand that people have used Kubota or Isuzu 3-cylinder diesels (around 22HP) to replace the original petrol engine.
Ideally, I would like to buy an adapter plate from a machine shop or learn more about the process of manufacturing an adapter plate for this conversion.
Any hints or tips on this subject gratefully received.
Thanks a lot. Ukfarmer.
|
 |
|
Sponsored Links
|
|
|
jaybmiller
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
Points: 22458
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 6:58am |
|
You should consider the 'offshore' 10HP diesel engines that sell for about $600 here in Canada,eh ! I almost put one on a G I had then ,well, sold the G.
The G only has about 10Hp so putting anything bigger can( and will....) destroy the rear axle splines at the very least.
You need to look at the 'power curve- RPM' info though. It might be wise to have a 'reduction' from the engine so the G runs at the right speed.
Making the adapter plate(s) is easy. Make them out of plywood ! It's a LOT faster and cheaper to make( and remake) and test to be sure everything fits. You're not concerned about actually running it, just alignment and such. Once you're happy THEN have a machine shop do the metalwork.
Jay
|
|
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
|
|
Ukfarmer
Bronze Level
Joined: 08 Nov 2015
Location: Devon,UK
Points: 12
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 7:17am |
|
Dear Jay,
Thankyou for your great information. I understand that adding more power is possibly problematical. However I saw this video ......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zlIEl8wMZI&index=13&list=PLRi8WF987EKSQ874b6TqpLjIsfLy9cKUy
It appears to show a converted G with what looks like a 3-cyl diesel, apparently 22hp.
I wonder if you could take a look at this video and tell me your thoughts, please?
Thanks.
|
|
Herb(GA)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 15 Sep 2009
Location: United States
Points: 1036
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 4:24pm |
|
UK; the G is a neat little tractor with some inherent design concerns. One that is noted in Operators Manual is that 'creeper low' gear is an added feature for G speed control only; NOT for power. Reason being 'creeper low gearing' is not properly supported by the transmission bearings. Also, breakage of rear axle shafts is too common. Herb(GA)
|
|
JohnCO
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Niwot Colo
Points: 8992
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 09 Nov 2015 at 11:26pm |
|
There was an outfit here in the US that did conversions to I believe Isuzu diesel but I haven't seen any ads for them lately. One of the occasional posters from south of Portland Oregon, Singing Pig, has one.
I like the idea of a Chinese single cylinder 10 hp engine, Should be close to the same RPM with a bit more torque. On the other hand, G's don't use a lot of gas (petrol) even working hard, so it will take quite a while to make up the difference in cost of diesel over gas.
Oh, and Welcome to the Forum!
|
|
"If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer"
Allis Express participant
|
|
Ukfarmer
Bronze Level
Joined: 08 Nov 2015
Location: Devon,UK
Points: 12
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 3:59am |
Thanks Herb(GA). Have a look at this link please.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zlIEl8wMZI&index=13&list=PLRi8WF987EKSQ874b6TqpLjIsfLy9cKUy
My calculations are based on the draw-bar HP of the G being approx 10.
Transmission power losses are around 40% (as in bevel gearbox standard power loss formulas)
Water cooling pump and fan takes 2HP.
So, the existing petrol engine is providing;
Transmission losses 40%, therefore crank/brake HP is (10x100/60) = 16.66
Add the water pump/fan HP loss, gets up to 18.66.If a hydraulic pump is fitted (on a replacement diesel motor), then this takes 2-3 HP
Say, add 3hp for hydraulic pump, gets up to 21.66HP at the crank.
A single cylinder diesel would be much more stressful on the drive-line than a multi-cylinder engine...so, maybe the 3-cylinder Isuzu/Kubota 22HP motor is justified.
The creeper gear option induces slow speed and high torque, and should only be used under low load conditions, I think.
One thing I will try to arrange is a spring-damped driven plate in the clutch, to absorb some of the shock loading from a diesel motor at low revs.
Can you check my calculations and assumptions, please?
Thanks,
UKfarmer.
|
|
Ukfarmer
Bronze Level
Joined: 08 Nov 2015
Location: Devon,UK
Points: 12
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 4:08am |
|
Hello JohnCo,
Thanks for the welcome.
I am sure you are correct about the creeper gear being a problem. I have calculated the power provided by the existing petrol engine (see my reply to Herb(GA).
Petrol in the UK is GBP5 per gallon. I think the G would use one gallon per working hour, at least.
If I was to add hydraulics, the fuel consumption would be that bit higher again.
The video link shows a converted G in Holland, all tooled up for hoeing.
I am trying to contact the owner there, to see if he has had transmission problems or not!
see video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zlIEl8wMZI&index=13&list=PLRi8WF987EKSQ874b6TqpLjIsfLy9cKUy
Thankyou,
UKfarmer.
|
|
jaybmiller
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
Points: 22458
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 6:23am |
|
Perhaps another option, at least to consider, is the 'electric G'. Several Gs have been converted to using5-10HP 'golf cart' motors.Batteries add needed ballast for traction.
There should be some articles online. I'd be concerned about battery life and runtime.
never thought about the 'shock' effect of the 1 cylinder vs multi cylinder engine....hmm..wonder if you put an automatic tranny 'torque converter' inline would that be a solution ???
Jay
|
|
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
|
|
Dusty MI
Orange Level
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Charlotte, Mi
Points: 5058
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 8:09am |
Almost 20 years ago I bought a G. It has hydraulics and the special low. I was plowing with it, 1-12 inch plow, when it stop moving. The hydraulic worked, but just would not move. The neighbor, where I was plowing, towed me home. When I tore it down I found that the right axel had broke. It did not twist off but was shattered, like it had worked hardened. Also the G does not have a water bump in it's cooling system, it's a thermo syphon system.
Dusty
|
|
917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"
|
|
bikley
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Maryland
Points: 5405
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 8:21am |
|
|
|
Ukfarmer
Bronze Level
Joined: 08 Nov 2015
Location: Devon,UK
Points: 12
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 8:26am |
|
Hello Dusty,
Maybe that's a good lesson for me. If this happened with the original engine, then great care is needed with any increase in power.
The Dutch video could be of a G on borrowed time!
I am hoping to find out if that machine is still going.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zlIEl8wMZI&index=13&list=PLRi8WF987EKSQ874b6TqpLjIsfLy9cKUy
Thanks,
UKfarmer.
|
|
Case 5150 Ford 7710 IH 584 AC G 1949
Visit sunny Devon,UK.
|
|
Ukfarmer
Bronze Level
Joined: 08 Nov 2015
Location: Devon,UK
Points: 12
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 8:31am |
|
Thanks bikley,
This video is showing a really good hoeing arrangement, but we are all a bit concerned about adding a higher HP diesel engine to achieve it!
UKfarmer.
|
|
Case 5150 Ford 7710 IH 584 AC G 1949
Visit sunny Devon,UK.
|
|
TramwayGuy
Orange Level Access
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
Location: Northern NY
Points: 11445
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 10 Nov 2015 at 6:52pm |
First off, ALL G's have the creeper gear. Secondly, the transmission is the same as the 'B' and 'C' tractors, but without the outboard reductions. So the input speed of the transmission is reduced with a permanent reduction gear between the engine and transmisson to keep the travel speeds down. (the creeper gear is an extra low gear, outside the normal 3-speed transmission). When you reduced the input speed of the tranny, the allowable torque through the drivetrain is still the same, but total power through is reduced. That is why you can't put on the same HP engine as a 'B'. The proper size diesel engine IMHO would be a naturally-aspirated engine with about 70 cubic inches (a little more than 1.0 Liter). Multi-cylinder engines are preferred, as mentioned earlier. The original gasoline engine was 62 cubic inches (1.0 Liter). Belt HP was 10.33 at 1800 RPM. As long as the new engine delivers approximately the same power at that RPM, it doesn't matter much what happens beyond that. A higher RPM with more total power will not cause an increase in torque in the drivetrain. Most diesels nowadays are rated at least 2400 RPM or even higher. What is important is what the rating is at 1800 RPM.
|
|
Ukfarmer
Bronze Level
Joined: 08 Nov 2015
Location: Devon,UK
Points: 12
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11 Nov 2015 at 12:48am |
|
Sure, the electric option is interesting.
Thanks,
Ukfarmer.
|
|
Case 5150 Ford 7710 IH 584 AC G 1949
Visit sunny Devon,UK.
|
|
Ukfarmer
Bronze Level
Joined: 08 Nov 2015
Location: Devon,UK
Points: 12
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11 Nov 2015 at 12:55am |
|
Great info TramwayGuy!
It is good to know there are common parts with the B and C. This is not surprising, I guess.
Reports of breaking half-shafts confirm what you are saying, since the transmission is running at lower revs (thus higher torque anyway) without the final drive reduction units.
I have found a Kubota 3-cylinder engine with an output of 11 hp at 1800 engine revs. This could be the best option then?
http://www.kubota.co.uk/product-range/engines-uk/product-range/super-mini-series/d722/
Thankyou very much,
Ukfarmer.
|
|
Case 5150 Ford 7710 IH 584 AC G 1949
Visit sunny Devon,UK.
|
|
TramwayGuy
Orange Level Access
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
Location: Northern NY
Points: 11445
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11 Nov 2015 at 1:40am |
I think I would go with the slightly larger D902 Kubota -3200 RPM version. The reason is that the HP ratings on engines is 'Gross' Hp and not 'Net'; meaning they do not include loss from fan or electrical accessory drain. The D902 is only slightly heavier and I think will be closer to the performance of the N62 Continental. The Nebraska tests showed Net Brake HP at the belt drive.
Post pictures of whichever one you end up with.
Edited by TramwayGuy - 11 Nov 2015 at 1:41am
|
|
Ukfarmer
Bronze Level
Joined: 08 Nov 2015
Location: Devon,UK
Points: 12
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11 Nov 2015 at 1:44am |
|
OK, plus the fact that I would fit an hydraulic pump on the front crank pulley for constant open centre hydraulic services like lifting the toolbars.
Ukfarmer.
|
|
Case 5150 Ford 7710 IH 584 AC G 1949
Visit sunny Devon,UK.
|
|
Ukfarmer
Bronze Level
Joined: 08 Nov 2015
Location: Devon,UK
Points: 12
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11 Nov 2015 at 1:55am |
|
Yes, pictures will come.
Adapter plate is the challenge for me. I have seen a YT video where they use a sheet of perspex to locate/drill dowel positions, and make a gearbox input shaft extension, to centre up the perspex profile with the flywheel housing/flywheel pilot bearing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuprPEhF2Ic&list=PLRi8WF987EKRgWP18ccYoVLG07O84tTn1&index=1
The engine supplier here in the UK, say they can supply different flywheel housings to facilitate mating with the gearbox bell-housing, but there will still be a need for an adapter plate, or plates.
Any hints or tips on this?
Thanks,
Ukfarmer.
|
|
Case 5150 Ford 7710 IH 584 AC G 1949
Visit sunny Devon,UK.
|
|
jaybmiller
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
Points: 22458
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11 Nov 2015 at 6:33am |
|
The adapter plate template could be made of 'marine grade plywood' or 'polycarb'. MG plywood has a LOT of layers (baltic birch) so it's more stable,takes holes better. Polycarbonite is a cast plastic and WILL take to drilling holes and even machining! Perspex is called 'Plexiglas' over here on this side of the pond. It will shatter when drilled and is NOT machinable.
My first choice would be polycarb, though it's more than MG ply ,being clear you could see exactly how things line up ! It might be worth the cost and effort to make 2 templates, one for the tractor side, the other for the engine side. That way you could be 100% sure of alignment before the CNC guy makes the real adapter.
Also I'm thinking that a 'Lovejoy' coupling might work to attach the engine to the clutch. My A-C forklift has one for the hydraulic pump/crankshaft front of engine connection. Lovejoys are two 'hubs' with 3 fingers that mesh with a big hexagonal 'rubber' section. The 'rubber' part comes in different strengths.Found that out when repairing a snowblower,stronger takes the 'shock' of engaging the blower! Using one allows for EASY install/removal of engine AND some 'misalignment' is OK !
Just some points to ponder...
Jay
|
|
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
|
|
Ukfarmer
Bronze Level
Joined: 08 Nov 2015
Location: Devon,UK
Points: 12
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11 Nov 2015 at 7:11am |
Thanks, Jay.
I am sure that polycarbonate would be best for templates to make the adapter plate.
As I understand it, the clutch cover will be bolted onto the flywheel, as usual, with the driven plate driving the gearbox input shaft, with the driven plate utilising the endfloat supplied by the input shaft splines when the clutch release bearing is pushed against the clutch release fingers.
It would be highly desirable to have a Lovejoy flexible coupling in there somewhere, to absorb shock to the transmission, but I am not sure where there is room.
The gearbox input shaft gets a lot of support from locating into the flywheel pilot bearing, and, of course, everything has to be truly concentric!
I have the chance of a D902 newish engine, but I see the flywheel has a bevelled centre rather than a flat machined area for the 6-inch AC clutch. I should be able to find a flywheel somewhere, unless the combined prices add up to new.
 
Getting there!
Thanks,
Ukfarmer.
|
|
Case 5150 Ford 7710 IH 584 AC G 1949
Visit sunny Devon,UK.
|
|
