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whizone 
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Location: Texas
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 Topic: Fuel in Oil Question?
Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 3:01am |
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All, got a 65' AC 190xt with D2900 motor. Just finished mods on the old tractor that's been sitting for many years. Got tractor up and running initially with few problems. I did however have to have the injector pump rebuilt do to the cage "plastic" parts coming apart and plugging up the whole pump and return line/valve. The tractor engine came less a turbo so I added one. Post the tubo install I now have a smoking tractor which fills my oil pan with fuel. This is something it did NOT do until I had the injector pump rebuilt and added the turbo. Does anyone have any ideas as to how I can tell where the fuel is coming from and how the fuel is getting into the oil? Also, its not just some fuel, when I pull the stick its like the whole case is full and when I run the tractor its now coming out of the front main seal.. Your thoughts are appreciated, I need to get mowing with this old tractor.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 5:58am |
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You've rolled over the drive shaft umbrella seal on the injection pump.
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SteveM C/IL
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Location: Shelbyville IL
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Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 9:58am |
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Doc has it. Remove pump and fix or replace umbrella seal and be VERY careful reinstalling.
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DougG
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Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 10:07am |
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Get an umbrella seal install tool for Roosamaster pumps , works great , also use lots of lube,,
Edited by DougG - 18 Jun 2023 at 10:09am
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whizone
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Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 10:41am |
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Got it. Thank you all very much. I didn't install the pump myself. I had the guy who rebuilt it for me do it... So, he will get a call for sure. I will post and update on the progress.
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Lars(wi)
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Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 1:38pm |
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Just out of curiosity, did you add the turbo because the an old one had been removed? Or did you add a turbo to an engine that had never had one?
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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whizone
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Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 7:35pm |
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I do believe the old tractor had a turbo on it at one time, maybe a long time ago. I acquired the turbo and all required parts online and got it installed. I didn't have the problem with fuel in the oil until I added the turbo and the rebuilt injector pump. I was wondering if all the extra intake pressure may have something to do with oil in the fuel, but I don't have enough engine knowledge to figure that one out. Thanks.
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victoryallis
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Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 5:27am |
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The Dr is right umbrella seal is bad have a good pump shop redo it. Best bet is to find Ed Guenther. Had a 6080 do the same local guy that I trust fixed me up.
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8030 and 8050MFWD, 7580, 3 6080's, 160, 7060, 175, heirloom D17, Deere 8760
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whizone
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Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 5:55am |
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So your suggesting I have the pump rebuilt again? The tractor seems to run ok now but it does smoke some, Or do I just need a new umbrella seal installed correctly? The local injector pump guy I used came by good reference, but I did notice he had a heck of time getting it back on the shaft, it took him several tries and he did take it on/off several times adjusting the seals and lining up the shaft.. So moving forward now I take the pump off and redo the install and seals?
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WF owner
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Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 6:09am |
The "umbrella seals" are on the shaft that goes into the injection pump (the shaft stays on the tractor when you remove the injection pump). IIRC, there are two seals. They are the shape of a very small umbrella. One faces each way. Their purpose is to keep oil in the engine and diesel fuel in the injection pump. If one wrinkles on installation (usually the inner seal), diesel fuel can get by the seal and contaminate the engine oil. The injection pump is fine. You should install a new seal, in case the wrinkled (or torn) seal is damaged. If you decide to do the job yourself, you need to align the timing marks inside the cover on the pump and wire the throttle on the pump to the position it would be with the tractor at full throttle, before removing the injection pump. You will also need 12 new "washer seals" that go on the injector lines.
EDIT: As DougG says, they do make a special tool that holds the seals to facilitate installation of the pump. Back in the 70's, when we were involved in pulling, I routinely changed pumps without the special tools and only once, when I was in a hurry, had a problem with an umbrella seal. It can be done without the tool.
Edited by WF owner - 19 Jun 2023 at 6:17am
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injpumpEd
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Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 9:45am |
 victoryallis wrote:
The Dr is right umbrella seal is bad have a good pump shop redo it. Best bet is to find Ed Guenther. Had a 6080 do the same local guy that I trust fixed me up. |
No point getting me involved lol! Either the seal is rolled upon installation, or, the pilot tube has spun in the housing if it was even replaced. If not replaced, it could have a groove where the seal rides, then it would prove the pump was not properly rebuilt, just "put a kit in" lol! Good luck! Oh, and many times when run a while with a rolled seal, it can ruin the pilot tube, and it'll need replaced again, requiring housing removal.
Edited by injpumpEd - 19 Jun 2023 at 9:46am
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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victoryallis
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Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 11:40am |
injpumpEd wrote:
victoryallis wrote:
The Dr is right umbrella seal is bad have a good pump shop redo it. Best bet is to find Ed Guenther. Had a 6080 do the same local guy that I trust fixed me up. |
No point getting me involved lol! Either the seal is rolled upon installation, or, the pilot tube has spun in the housing if it was even replaced. If not replaced, it could have a groove where the seal rides, then it would prove the pump was not properly rebuilt, just "put a kit in" lol! Good luck! Oh, and many times when run a while with a rolled seal, it can ruin the pilot tube, and it'll need replaced again, requiring housing removal.
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You meet the description of reputable. I don’t think I’ve met many folks more meticulous than you are.
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8030 and 8050MFWD, 7580, 3 6080's, 160, 7060, 175, heirloom D17, Deere 8760
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whizone
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Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 7:02pm |
Where is a good source for new replacement unbrella seals and the 12 washer seals? My pump is a Roosa Master DBGFC637-31AF. MFG # 4020785, SER # 612302, 2200RPM.
Also, I spoke with mechanic on pump and he says its probably an injector issue as opposed to the injector pump... Let me just say I will be taking the injector pump off to inspect the umbrella seals etc. I will be posting pics as well.. more to come. Thanks all.
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I M Fedup
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Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 8:22pm |
The "mechanic" is playing CYA here. An injector problem will show up in starting and/or performance long before it fills your crankcase with fuel. A rolled seal is much more likely.
Seals and washers are not hard to find. Back then Case and Deere both used that pump, along with many other engine makers. Specific pump numbers aren't needed. Most any "good" parts man can get them for you.
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ryan(IN)
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Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 9:55pm |
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Any good Agco dealer should have them. If they don’t have them they can get them.
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ryan
1984 8070 FWA,1979 7060,1975 7040,1971 190,1960 D-17D,1957 D-14, 196? D-19G, 1975 5040,1971? 160,1994 R62
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whizone
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Posted: 26 Jun 2023 at 5:52am |
Just a sideline question for you pump SME's. My tractor will not stay running unless the bolt circled in the picture is loosened to allow fuel to run out. If I tighten or stop the fuel from running out from it the engine dies. Any ideas as to why that may happen? Thanks much.
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WF owner
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Posted: 26 Jun 2023 at 6:00am |
I'm not an injection pump expert by any means, but I suspect the flex ring in the pump is disintegrating and has plugged up the fuel return on the top of the pump. A temporary fix is to replace the fuel return fitting with a hose barb, but the pump will need to be rebuilt soon.
Edit: A few things I thought I should add.
These pumps were built long before low sulfur fuel. When low sulfur fuel came along, it tended to disintegrate the flex ring. The newer rebuild kits are designed to work better with low sulfur fuel.
We used to say to knock the ball out of the return fitting so the fitting did not plug up with debris from the flex ring. The fittings are quite pricey (last I heard was about $75 or more). Chances are good that a reputable rebuilder is probably going to replace it during the rebuild anyway, but I just don't have the heart to intentionally ruin an expensive fitting when I can go to the hardware store and get a hose barb for a few dollars.
Removing the obstruction will probably allow the tractor to run for a short period, maybe a few weeks, but the pump needs to be rebuilt. it is a very temporary solution. Make plans to have the pump rebuilt soon.
SECOND EDIT: I just read that the injection pump was just rebuilt. I guess I would be chatting with the guy that rebuilt the pump.
Edited by WF owner - 26 Jun 2023 at 6:17am
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DrAllis
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Posted: 26 Jun 2023 at 6:04am |
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The same tractor that's putting fuel into the motor oil ?? Sounds like the fitting directly under the TEE on the top of the pump is plugged.
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Mikez
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Posted: 26 Jun 2023 at 6:34am |
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Is the picture of pump the one you’re talking about. That doesn’t look rebuilt or even ever off tractor
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whizone
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Posted: 26 Jun 2023 at 8:59pm |
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Yep, same tractor and pump. Pic was before the tractor and pump were rebuilt.
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whizone
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Posted: 26 Jun 2023 at 9:06pm |
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whizone
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Posted: 26 Jun 2023 at 9:16pm |
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Yes sir Dr. Allis it is the same tractor that is putting fuel in the oil. I am really getting frustrated now that I know the pump may be coming apart again and plugging up the check ball "T" fitting on top of the pump. ESPECIALLY after I just had it rebuilt for the same reason supposedly... Now the guy who did the pump rebuild will NOT return any of my calls etc.. It is sooo hard to come so far with this tractor to run into this type of issue with either a bad rebuilt pump or a bad lying mechanic, especially after he was paid a lot of $$$$. He best hope I don't run into him at the coffee shop!
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DrAllis
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Posted: 26 Jun 2023 at 9:25pm |
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Shouldn't be failing already. He probably didn't clean or replace the old fitting and it's plugged.
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AC720Man
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Posted: 26 Jun 2023 at 9:27pm |
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I agree with Doc and Steve. Most likely a rolled umbrella seal. A reputable pump man would have got those and the washers for you or I would never have him service a pump for me again. Putting the pump on is not difficult if it was timed correctly when it was taken off and is timed correctly when it comes back from being rebuilt. Using the tool makes it easier when installing the umbrella seals. The turbo has nothing to do with putting fuel in the crankcase. If the pump is failing again, IMO you need a reputable pump man that stands behind his work and a qualified mechanic that knows how to install it.
Edited by AC720Man - 26 Jun 2023 at 9:31pm
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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