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Power Crater vs Flat Top |
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Rod B
Orange Level Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Location: Peoria Points: 415 |
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We can't help it if you didn't adjust the timeing and had the wrong clearance on your 2 stroke.
We can't help it if you use soft rods, weak pistons or poor design. All of your failures are a result of your own thoughts and actions. |
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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Rod B
Orange Level Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Location: Peoria Points: 415 |
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You're full of bs pank. You've got a different argument than you had last time on this subject. Had anyone other than Marty posted the same things you wouldn't give 2 hoots.
It's easy to see how little you know. Ever look at an m&w and see where the top ring is located? Better yet show us. |
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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when you get tight enough to see effects of quench the turbulance errodes the piston top only in the tightest area where your gaining quench . thats the point . sorry it went right over some of your heads. ps wi you remember saying a 226 crank cant be externally balanced since you want to bring up cans and cants. And if you dont have sufficient material above the ring lands then they break from compression not detonation just look at where the ring lands are on a turbo piston further down vs a naturally aspirated piston. Takes about a 1/8 to .150 inch down on a high comp. ratio naturally aspirated to keep lands from breaking. Also quench starts at .040 anything greater than .040 between piston top and quench pad of the head is considered to have no quench. David Vizzards newest book talks about ring placement and torque curve from it so its catching on .
Edited by mlpankey - 22 Nov 2012 at 7:38am |
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wi50
Orange Level Joined: 24 Sep 2010 Location: weegieland Points: 1010 |
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I bought a wd45 that was not running. When I pulled the engine apart I found flat top pistons in it with every ring land broken. It was a work tractor, my guess is someone unknowingly overhauled it with the wrong parts.
The pistons were .380" down in the bore if I rember correctly. I'd have to measure a piston sometime and figure it, but that's way to much compression for cast pistons and low octane gas. I set my M&W's up to be 11.25 :1. I took right about .050 0ff the top to get the quench height. I think I trimmed the original 70cc bowl out to 88 or 90cc which didn't take that much other than take the little vane out of them, taper the sides and true up most of the bottom. Then with the valve relief machined in I think the total volume was something like 92cc. I buy a few gallons of 114 race gas and blend with a little 92 for it. It probably went to 6 or 8 pulls this summer, dad and my hired help take it out if there's time. I went to a couple with it a few times and try to find a kid to drive and let have some fun. Edited by wi50 - 21 Nov 2012 at 11:54pm |
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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D21Puller
Bronze Level Joined: 27 Sep 2012 Location: USA Points: 21 |
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We had a wc block with turned down m&w wc pistons and a 45 crank. Also had to grind in the bowl area to keep the valves from touching them. Worked fine for pulling but would always blow a head gasket plowing, one of the water ports on the gasket usually shifted. WC with 14.9-28 would pull 3-14 in any gear in just about any ground condition you could imagine easily. After 3 maybe 4 years of fun a tear down revealed broken ring lands on all the cylinders. Assumed detonation caused this, would probably still be running had the plow not been hooked to the drawbar, but it looked so good waxing them 2 cylinder deeres and 3020's!!! HaHa. Switched back to the flat tops on 45 crank not as much power but its very play toy reliable. Never did notice any erosion on top of the m&w pistons, if i find the old ones laying in the archives i could take pics and have the wife post them.
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Rod B
Orange Level Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Location: Peoria Points: 415 |
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What's your point? Turned down pistons broke. Detonation kills. Another failure. M and W pistons are quite thick and have a huge dish to start with. Others are not so well suited. |
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wi50
Orange Level Joined: 24 Sep 2010 Location: weegieland Points: 1010 |
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The pictures I posted were taken after the engine had many hours on it. It gets used for odd jobs, moveing some grain, rakeing hay etc. Another case in which you're trying to argue about some subject that you already failed at.
I even drive it to a few local pulls. With lightened governer weights and 38" tires the police speed sign in town said 28mph. Hundreds of thousands of automotive based engines have logged millions of hours with a quench design and not eroded. My old WD45 will likely run a verry long time also. Though it's not a quench engine the allis power craters help to stir things up on compression stroke. There's no evedence on tens of thousands of them of any excessive erosion. Edited by wi50 - 21 Nov 2012 at 9:01pm |
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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That wasnt the question. The question was is your quench after running the same as it was or did the turbulance errode the piston top. I also have picture of turned down pistons that were heavily pulled and they broke after third season. Would have lasted longer if sit in the barn and only made two pulls a year.
Edited by mlpankey - 21 Nov 2012 at 6:13pm |
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wi50
Orange Level Joined: 24 Sep 2010 Location: weegieland Points: 1010 |
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I put some pictures of it on here a while back and you made some trick photography claim that they were bogus............you should rember. You tried to argue and cry for 2 weeks in a thread titled "compression" saying it wasn't possiable. Called Barney than changed your story.
But if you guys can find a set of genuine M&W's for a WD that are in good shape they work great for building an easy quench engine. |
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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Wi have you had the head off that motor so you could see if there were any errosion of the piston top caused by the tight quench. We tightened a two stroke up it ran like a scoulded dog but when we tourn down for a freshening we saw our flat top had a slight dome from the errosion of the piston edge shaping its self to the cylinder fire ring creating a poor mans dome in the two cycle world.
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wi50
Orange Level Joined: 24 Sep 2010 Location: weegieland Points: 1010 |
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I used some genuine M&W pistons from a WD or WC in a Gleaner E engine. The M&W has about a 70cc bowl in them and a 2.94" compression height.
I trimmed the piston tops for a .010 pop up over the block deck so with a compressed head gasket I get a quench. I had to trim some valve reliefs in and cut the bowl volume out to get the compression where I wanted. The engine really runs good for what it is. Dad got a few 2nd places this summer in classes of 22 and 25 tractors with lots bigger engines. I hope to put a decent cam in it this winter and dyno it. The power crater design is better than the flat top if both were used in identical engine combinations, comp ratios, etc. But I'd bet the measureable difference would be verry insignificant. Anything that can help cause a little turbulance and not kill flame travel helps. Edited by wi50 - 20 Nov 2012 at 9:30pm |
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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AaronSEIA
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Mt Pleasant, IA Points: 2535 |
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I have Powercrater pistons from an AGCO 175 kit in my WC with a 4" crank and all WC components (carb, intake, etc). M&W dyno at Old Threshers put her at about 32 horse for what it's worth. My WD has WD45 powercrater pistons on a 45 crank and all 45 componets, made 50 on the same dyno the year before. Wanted to run them both this year, but didn't get the chance.
AaronSEIA |
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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well fall over Rod agrees with me on this about compression . no advantage from piston top design . if you run the compression ratio change for the percentage of increase in compression you see that larger bore change ups comp. ratio or cr being increased by piston compression height change is the real numerical measured increase in power
Edited by mlpankey - 19 Nov 2012 at 3:22pm |
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Rod B
Orange Level Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Location: Peoria Points: 415 |
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It comes from the compression increase when people install the flat top pistons for a 4" stroke in an engine with 4 1/2" stroke.
Piston design can help with a power increase but in this case it's from the increase in compression. The pistons are down in the bore to far from the head to have the piston top make the change. M&W used a vane in the piston head to help cause turbulance during compression stroke, probably the best designed piston.
Most of the aftermarket kits I have seen use a large concave dish in the piston and vary the compression for the engine by wrist pin placement.
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DonDittmar
Orange Level Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Location: MIllersburg, MI Points: 2476 |
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Only due to there flat top design......the power craters were good engines |
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
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Charlie175
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Shenandoah, VA Points: 6353 |
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I've see some discussion about flat top WD pistons giving more power to 226 engines than the Power Crater Pistons. Is it only because of the higher compression or was the Power Crater a bust?
If Compression was it, then the 175 pistons should be top performers? I generally don't see these pistons in kits unless they are Allis Kits.
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Charlie
'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
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