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Rod B 
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 Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 11:08am |
Do these pictures cause the ignorant to show their jealousy, or do the jealous show their ignorance?
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427435
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Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 12:59pm |
 wi50 wrote:
mark vaughn wrote:
Staying on the subject of tractor pulling, what class would the wi50 fall into? What are the class rules , such as tractor weight, limitations and other requirements? Due to not being knowledgeble with pulling, I was just curious. Looks like wi50 would have some very competetive engines in whichever class it would be in. Wi50, I have been reading some of your posts and you seem to know exactly what you are talking about. Lots of good up to date knowledge!! Sounds like lots of fun and very competetive!!!  |
Mark, we really don't have much for rules anymore, make weight and be naturally aspirated. 3500-5500 pound classes for this engine. I should be useing a different engine even if I wanted a 4 cyl allis used engine. I should put all the time and effort into a Deutz converted to billet cylinders and work over a set of Deutz heads from a V-8 application. The tractor heads are fairley limeted but from the big kraut, there's some real potential.
I'm makeing the cylinder head for this engine in the posts. But that doesn't happen overnight. I'll share pictures of it someday, but some people can't handle simple items like blocks or cranks. We'll save that saga for later.
I'm also at a point now where I have the necessary items for our alky superstock and that's my main priority so this Allis is going to have to go on the back burner for some time. |
Does that mean someone with an old MM with the 504 cube engine can put in the 800 cube engine??
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Mark
B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel,
GTH-L Simplicity
Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not.
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mark vaughn
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Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 8:41pm |
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427435 That would be a killer setup with that mighty moe power plant. Another great engine would the 427435 Rat power but thats just my thoughts.
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wi50
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 8:05pm |
Around here the 800 moline is just fine. The "farm stock" classes have turned into 4 mph for the lighter tractors and 6 or 8 mph for the heavier tractors. Then there's the "hobby stock" or some other name depending on the pull and who puts it on, but the rules are to be naturally aspirated, safety equipment, etc....... just hope you brung enough under the hood. The heavier classes are turbocharged and limeted to a certain size, usually 3X4 charger but some places unlimeted. Then we have the "open class", multi charger, or single, no real limets.
And yes boys the lifters come out the top, or the bottom just fine if the cam is out. The dogbone and assembly need to be loaded from the top. What I should do is machine the top of the block between the push rods on center for a plug and make a long post with a snap ring groove so I can load the whole assembly from the top.
I've got to many cylinder heads to get done and parts for our superstock now to put much time into this Allis engine. Though I did have a few pictures in my phone I loaded here to share of boreing a couple of blocks. I made a blueprint of the block deck hole and bore locations, than I can square it up in the mill and use the DRO to move the bores offset EXACTLY where I want them. I made a tool to fit in a boreing head that works just great to do block work. I do leave the finish boreing of the cylinders for a friend with an automotive boreing bar and he can power hone for proper finish when done.
Edited by wi50 - 02 Feb 2012 at 8:07pm
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 8:27pm |
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Excellent!! We'd all be interested in pics of the Super progress since you don't have time for this project. It might be top secret though so we'll understand if you can't.
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mlpankey
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 8:31pm |
so when is the truck going to bring me your block for me to complete it like this one.
 lol |
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wi50
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 8:47pm |
After seeing pictures of some of that stuff like the scrap front pulley, cobbled oil lines, light duity soft rods, heavy clumpy pistons, I do not have to wonder why pankey got a whopping 5 runs out of an engine.... before it came apart. And that awesome wheelie bar setup..... a 7th grader can weld better.
So to answer the question in one word. NEVER
I like to be able to accuratly controll the bore spaceing on a block, tough to do with a standard boreing bar that centers on an existing bore. If I want to angle bore to gain clearance it's real easy to do...... and my Bridgeport has many other advantages.
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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wi50
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 8:49pm |
By the way pank, you have no credibility with me, nor many others as some have pointed out.
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Rod B
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 9:04pm |
Holy $#!* the machine shop let that fool past the front door. I seen those pictures years agoe. Those bores in p's block are not near close enough to the head bolt holes to get all those cubes he's worried about.
Wi I see one block in the backround on the mill and one partially assembled. How many of these things are you working on?
Edited by Rod B - 02 Feb 2012 at 9:12pm
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wi50
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 9:37pm |
Urr a funny guy Rod
There's a few projects in the works, weather it's mine or someone elses.... I don't post pictures or mention much of anyone elses.
Steve,
sure I can put up a few pictures of the super, I'll take a few shortly of some of the things I've got laying around the shop for it and the chassis is at a friends shop. There's 3 of us togather on it. Nothing is to top secrete. Just useing a bunch of junk that was laying around, we bought a good component chassis and trying to shoehorn a modified 504 Case into a frame that's to narrow for the block. I'm converting a set of alumnium Indy Cyl Heads to alky for it and makeing new manifolds. Makeing brackets and an adapter plate to hold a SFI clutch can on a narrowed up Case block right now. We plan to build a 3 turbo IH engine shortly but want to run a year or two with the existing engine.
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Ryan Renko
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 9:51pm |
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I admire your work wi50!!! I can build stuff out of wood everyday, but building things out of metal is another story!!! Great work. I enjoy having a adult beverage and checking out this forum but I hope we can all just get along as Rodney King said!!! I dont know enough about bearing tolerances or rods to even get in this talk!! Ryan
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mark vaughn
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 9:51pm |
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wi50 Keep pictures coming. Im diggin this ALLIS high performance stuff. I sure want to see some cylinder head and intake pictures when ever you get to that point. Thanks Mark
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 10:43pm |
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wi50,I just appreciate how you aren't derailed by conventional thinking. It's obvious that the word "can't" isn't in your lexicon and while this is an orange forum,most I think are jazzed by hi-perf no matter the original heritage.
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Jordan(OH)
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 11:18pm |
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Just curious, what made you go with the CASE 504? Not saying its right or wrong cause I have no idea, just wondering.
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427435
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Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 11:26pm |
wi50 wrote:
Around here the 800 moline is just fine. The "farm stock" classes have turned into 4 mph for the lighter tractors and 6 or 8 mph for the heavier tractors. Then there's the "hobby stock" or some other name depending on the pull and who puts it on, but the rules are to be naturally aspirated, safety equipment, etc....... just hope you brung enough under the hood. The heavier classes are turbocharged and limeted to a certain size, usually 3X4 charger but some places unlimeted. Then we have the "open class", multi charger, or single, no real limets.
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How much power is needed to be competitive in a class around 9000 lbs with 1 turbo? Would 600-800 be enough??
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Mark
B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel,
GTH-L Simplicity
Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not.
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 03 Feb 2012 at 9:43am |
Wi50, I've been reading this thread since it started, and I must say, as an old Drag Racer from back in the late 60's-early 70's, I've seen engine technology change tremendously as time progressed. I was one of those guys that came out of the first Aluminum rod era wondering how the heck is that thing connected to a piston gonna last in a 8,000 rpm engine? LOL! As most of us know, 8,000 rpm is a normal running range for most racing engines today so I'm dating myself here. I am enjoying this thread tho, I can tell ya that! My hat is off to gentleman like yourself that have the talent to actually "re-create" an engine from what it was origianally. You are sir, a very, very talanted man as the other's have said! I put you in the Bill Jenkin's, Smokey Yunik, Keith Black catagory. Not afraid to experiment, and re-create an engine, in a quest to make big performance gains. What impresses me the most is not only do you re-desiign, & re-engineer an engine, but you spend the time amount of time to make sure your "re-creation" will be reliable and also serviceable. Just keep those pics coming, cause' like the others here, I am enjoying the ride as I read. Keep us in the loop when you get back to this endevor. That engine is a work of art, and I hope it performs and meets to your expectations....
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mlpankey
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Posted: 03 Feb 2012 at 10:11am |
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Since your keeping g score of creditability would you like to see the private messages laughing at you. Don't worry guys you sent them private they will remain private..the junk hub was externally balance along with a flywheel for a specific crankshaft. One of those things you said couldn't be done. Remember.or should we bring back the post where you said it. If my stuff stayed piled back in the barn or always on the work shop table like the picture of the lifters being the fist time I ever seen those same two lifters on notebook paper was at least two years ago.my stuff would last just as yours does.tabled project with a excuse of insufficient time
Edited by mlpankey - 03 Feb 2012 at 10:16am
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Rod B
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Posted: 03 Feb 2012 at 12:07pm |
Do not lie to us pank. You get caught and backpedal. Now tell me where you seen WI50's lifter setup over 2 years agoe? Please tell us. He has not been posting that long.
I doubt that you have any PM laughing at him either.
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mlpankey
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Posted: 03 Feb 2012 at 12:26pm |
Rod B wrote:
Do not lie to us pank. You get caught and backpedal. Now tell me where you seen WI50's lifter setup over 2 years agoe? Please tell us. He has not been posting that long.
I doubt that you have any PM laughing at him either. |
ask him if Larry is his step dad or a family friend.
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427435
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Posted: 03 Feb 2012 at 12:42pm |
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I expect this kind of stuff on the Political forum, but Panky give it a rest!! Wi50 is providing useful and interesting info----------you're adding nothing to this thread.
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Mark
B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel,
GTH-L Simplicity
Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not.
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mlpankey
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Posted: 03 Feb 2012 at 1:32pm |
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Ok here's some knowledge. Boring bars either come with three or four centering feet depending on wich one you purchase and they can and have moved the bore off the original center.did bit of knowledge for the none boring bar owners / machinists
Edited by mlpankey - 03 Feb 2012 at 1:33pm
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Rod B
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Posted: 05 Feb 2012 at 12:26pm |
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Nothing added by pankey other than a little minded person trying to belittle someone. It screams jealousy and ignorance.
If it is a tabled project with excuse of insufficent time as pankey claims than what about the inabilities of his own failed projects and claims.
As others have said, give it a rest pankey. It is easy to see you're so full of BS and jealousy in what you post.
Keep up the good work Wi. We appreciate the pictures and information you are willing to share. Time has shown us who knows what and who posts what they read in this months issue of a magazine.
Edited by Rod B - 05 Feb 2012 at 12:30pm
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wi50
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Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 8:08am |
Well I see someone's concerened about my lifter setup and lying to us again. I just made the setup a couple weeks agoe and I have not been posting for 2 years.
Someone asked why a Case engine. Why not, it's different. It's been ran the past couple years in an ag chassis. I'm working on a different set of cylinder heads for it and a new intake manifold. Probably pull the pistons out and cut a bit more out of the bowls to drop the compression a little more also depending on how the heads flow when done. We have plans to and have been accumulating parts for a 3 turbo IH based engine but it doesn't happen overnight.
I'll take a few pictures of some of the things and post up later. But here's a few I took yesterday, one of my old WC when we were moveing some equipment around a shed and one shop pic. I'll take a few more later on and add when I get some time.   |
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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mlpankey
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Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 5:05pm |
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Your right I did lie. It wasn't a couple of years ago .It was 2008 when a dairyman from Wisconsin shows me roller lifters a lathe turned billet camshaft and a filled head that he said he would get 350 cfms out of combo. I questioned then the cross sectional area. He used words like hard headed envious and jealous and said our communications were over. Any similarities. Or just coincidence
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Charlie (NC)
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Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 5:25pm |
Steve you named some heavy hitters there. I honestly don't know if Wi50 is in that class or not (I don't know that much) but his work sure looks innovative to me. Everything I've ever heard Plankey say just sounded like so much BS. Speaking of legends of motorsports, ever hear of a guy name Garley Daniels? His shop is about 20 miles from me. I don't know him personally but know several guys that are buddies with him. He started off working as a school bus mechanic, working on 292 Chevy inline 6's. Last I knew he was building experimental V6 engines for GM's drag racing program. He's self taught all the way through.
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patrickmull
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Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 6:06pm |
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what is everyone's opinion of what a good compression ratio would be to run for a pulling tractor
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Charlie (NC)
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Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 7:00pm |
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That's kind of an open ended question. It depends on what class you are running, what fuel you are burning, what engine you are running and a host of other things like are you turbocharged, is the engine modified, etc. But have no fear because Plankey or Panky or whatever his name is can tell you exactly to the 1/1000 of a percent of what you need.
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wi50
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Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 7:40pm |
some fool on the internet will try to talk you into 14 to 1 or something. But assumeing you are working on a low speed pulling engine in one of these old gas tractors I'd stay somewhere in the 10 to 11.5 to 1 range. If it's going to get wound up where it doesn't have much time to take a breath than one can go up to 12.5 or 13 to 1.
But it depends some on the combustion chamber and or piston design as well as the size of the engine. If you have a verry strong engine with good parts and the ability to quench it than one can run a little higher ratio.
I got one for low speed (4mph governed RPM) pulling at 11.25 to 1 and it's just a little to much, I should knock it back around 10 or 10.5. Some I'm currently working on one is targeted to be 10.5 for a NATPA div 3 and 4 type tractor, another dedicated div 4 one is at 12 to 1 but verry fussy. My high speed engine in the old WC is right around 12 to 1 but the cam really bleeds off pressure at low speed, that engine isn't set up to do much work below 3000 RPM.
I'd rather have an engine that has more breathing potential than useing real high compression, that will give you a much more reliable package and perform better though the operating range. Reliability and simplicity is worth way more than a fella thinks. I've seen some dang tough engines that wouldn't blow verry hard on a pressure gauge.
Edited by wi50 - 07 Feb 2012 at 7:45pm
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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mlpankey
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Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 7:49pm |
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Most the division 3 and 4 competitive tractors are 12.1 brad peters case. Is one it got beat by a big inch allis wd from newyork with a little more cr. High comp. Does add stress and can reduce life expectancy if not routinely checked.
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wi50
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Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 7:42pm |
few guys wanted to see so   me more pics so here's some of what is happening on some Allis engine projects
One pic of the light super chassis, some of some manifolds and a clutch for different alky tractor projects I'm messing with. I've got a bunch of Allis engines in various builds for fella's, one is a fairley large engine at 4.625X6 and the pic on the WD-45 block is a real cheap little engine useing a Keith Black 4.185 piston, bored 4.125 overbore liners, an IH 308 truck engine rod and an offset ground crank to 4.75 stroke. Another one in the line is a 4.28 bore setup with welded Buda rods. Some guys have thousands to spend, and others want to get all they can for a thousand bucks to run in the stock class.
I do a lot of head and manifold work for others weather it's for a NTPA super or a local stock puller, or some NATPA rigs, I don't really say much about some of what gets done and I don't show much for pics, but I'll ask a few of the guys if it's OK and maybe post some pics of the parts sometime. I don't mind shareing my own, but not others.
Edited by wi50 - 14 Feb 2012 at 7:57pm
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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