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D17 Live Hydraulics project |
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Claus
Orange Level Joined: 09 Dec 2009 Location: Hebron In Points: 1150 |
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Buy a Series IV or 170, much easier.
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E7018
Bronze Level Joined: 07 Dec 2009 Points: 167 |
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The steering shaft on mine had a spline on the front end shaft and a female coupling on the steering housing. Nothing to take apart. All 3 steering lines need to be unhooked. At the front casting. What oil comes out is going to come out.
If a person could find a engineering drawing of this piece, it might be useful. http://cgi.ebay.com/Case-IH-Coupling-Coupler-Pump-Drive-A-D140524-480D-4-/290534928592?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a53b30d0 |
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5639 |
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WTH would I want to buy a Series IV or a 170? Well, I wouldn't mind having 'em in my collection, but the Series 1 has an internal meaning to me- it was the very first machine I ever drove, and it connects me to my grandfather, who worked his fields and fed his cattle starting with the WC, then WD, then WD45, then D-17, and the last one was the Two-Twenty diesel with a cab. His D17 Series 1, and the Two-Twenty is still on the family farm, in my uncle's custody.
Grandpa's contention was always that, while the Two-Twenty was nice with cab and air-conditioning, good lights and air conditioning, the D17 was twice the workin' machine that the bigger machines were... more compact, and plenty powerful... And anyway, I've got a D17 here, and plenty of capacity to do what I'm doing, so I'll do it, and someday, mebbie I'll have the opportunity to get something else... but not now. |
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Claus
Orange Level Joined: 09 Dec 2009 Location: Hebron In Points: 1150 |
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Well I owned my late Grandfather's 1964 Series III for about 6 years, it was nice original sentimental tractor for me but I sold it to buy my 170, never looked back but that's just me.
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wfmurray
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Bostic NC Points: 1225 |
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Don,t know about D /17 but some of the models have two setscrews. one under one.
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pirlbeck
Silver Level Joined: 01 Dec 2009 Location: West Central IA Points: 221 |
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Dave,
E7018 is correct, the steering shaft is a splined slip fit where it connects to the coupling on the worm shaft coming out of the bolster. No need to drive out any pins to remove the bolster.
I have removed a lot of these D17 pulleys and the old boy ( long time AC mechanic) that taught me removed way more then I ever will and we never used a puller. Remove (not just loosen) the tapered set screw and drive the pulley off with a long shaft from the bottom. Drive against the meaty part of the pulley and not the back side of the belt groove and it should come right off.
Good luck,
Pat
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Loyd
Bronze Level Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Points: 16 |
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Dave,
Do you have a sketch of your final idea? I have a series 1 and would like to do something like you are doing. I also may come up with some ideas. I have been a machinist for over 30 years. I have done machining on F-16, F-18, L-1011, Maverick Missiles and Blackhawk helicopters. Not counting sawmill, concrete and all kinds of other machinery over the years. I may not know much about tractors but I might be able to come up with an idea or two. I also have a cnc plasma machine that is useful for making special brackets etc.. I just reworked a bushhog today for a fellow. I am learning a lot about AC's by reading the posts! Keep up the good work! Loyd |
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MACK
Orange Level Joined: 17 Nov 2009 Points: 7664 |
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Pirlbeck is right. Get the generator out of your way and with a big hammer and a large long punch beat it off. Forget about a puller, it will only cost you when you break your pulley. MACK
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Steve M C/IL
Orange Level Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Location: shelbyville IL Points: 691 |
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Dad worked on scads of WD's and 45's and a few 17's.Only pulley set up I've seen had tapered set screws.Thats how my 45 is.Not saying yours don't but I've never seen one with a keyway.
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5639 |
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Thanks for the helpful hints, guys- yep, the splined steering shaft slid right out, no problem, so one less headache there. I was somewhat foiled by the lower hydraulic line going to the bolster right down by the steering shaft... stuck, and I didn't have a big enough line-wrench, but I noticed that it was clear to move forward if I detached the line at the pump end, and removed one 3/4" headed bolt under the engine mount. The little screw holding the retainer strap was so crammed, in, I couldn't get a wrench on it, so yanking the big bolt was easy and fast. Unhooked the suction line at the pump end, and shoved rubber stoppers in both lines, so it didn't spill much oil. Had a cookie sheet on the floor to catch the dribble, and the frame rail is well lubricated, but all's well.
To remove the sheave, I pulled the taper-headed locking bolt totally out as suggested (I'd dealt with these before on my '48 B). I only slid the frontend forward about eight inches, and was able to thread a piece of 1/4" plate with three holes in there, used two bolts through the sheave's bolt-holes, and ran a long fine-threaded rod (actually, the handle to my slide-hammer) in there, just spun the handle to push the pulley off the crank. It wasn't FAST to come off, but it didn't take a scary amount of effort to get it popped loose. There's about all the farther I had to go to get the old one snuck out, and the new one installed. There WAS a key in the keyway... and it didn't give me a lick'a trouble. To get the new one in, I just started it by hand, wiggled it down 'till it really wanted a rappin', then I put a block of wood on it, stuck a steel rod through the crank guides, and tapped on it with a 4lb machinist's hammer. I was careful to watch the tapered-bolt hole carefully, and stop when I got the crankshaft hole to line up with the bolt. One thing I found somewhat odd, is that the bolster doesn't like to roll straight out of the frame. The steering coupler likes to get hung up on the hole, and the steering ram doesn't clear the frame-rail bosses unless you pull it out cock-eyed. It was somewhat of an exercise of frustration, because I'm limited to 15lbs lifting right now, but doc says I can push, drag, or shove anything I want with my lower body, so I used a couple of ratchet straps, some various metal scraps, etc., to get it slid out, then pushed back in and lined up. |
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5639 |
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Here's the splined shaft, viewed from below:
And here's the part I thought would be the most annoying, but turned out to be simple... two bolts holding the axle yoke to the bellhousing... had'ta blast more grime off to see it clearly, and clearly needed some more grime-blasting. Here's the metal plate I used for pulling the old sheave out: It was made from junk that was just-lying-around. Actually, it was a shim plate from a scale... I frequently end up with extras... |
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5639 |
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And here's the 'new' 4-bolt sheave in place, with bolster ready to slide back into position...
I got it all back in and hooked up, belt back on, etc. I could put the radiator and front shell back in tomorrow, but I'm gonna let it wait 'till Monday evening- gonna pull the thermostat and test it (she doesn't warm up much), flush out the rad, and put it all back together with new hoses. Got family obligations tomorrow, but if there's a break, I'll pull the hand-start B out and reinstall a broken off drawbar... and in the meantime, I'll start fabricating the splined-shaft coupler and front bracketry. |
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5639 |
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Lloyd- I won't have a sketch yet, but I'll probably have one by virtue of making the pieces, and I'll share 'em with anyone who'd like 'em.
The CASE/Harvester pump drive coupler is a nice piece- a die-forging, probably. I don't have facilities to do any castings here yet... and will likely never be able to do any die-forging, but I've got about twenty-five machine tools, three torches, and seven welders in my shop, about the only thing I REALLY wished I had, is a CNC cutting table... something I could put a plasma OR gas torch on. I've got about 50% of the parts to build one, but the time, and available shop space aren't there yet... it'll hafta wait 'till the big workshop is done. In the meantime, all the parts I'll use will either be very generic off-the-shelf, or easily fabricated from generic off-the-shelf stuff, so anybody with a lathe and drill press should be able to copy it pretty easily. |
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Loyd
Bronze Level Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Points: 16 |
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Dave,
It is looking good! I wish I had 1/2 of the knowledge you have on this stuff. Keep up with the details....I am soaking it up! Thanks, Loyd |
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Brian G. NY
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: 12194 Points: 2198 |
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Dave, Run by me again how you bolted the puller plate to the old pulley (sheave);
were there holes in it already or did you drill and tap holes?
Any holes in the old pulley are not obvious in your pics.
Maybe I missed something?
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5639 |
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Dag, Bri- well, 'ya can't see it in the picture, but the early pulley has TWO threaded bolt holes in it. I've got the center dimensions measured, so I can rattle 'em off to 'ya later. I had a pair of bolts that didn't match the threads, but they were slightly smaller and would slip through just fine, and I was able to fish 'em in and thread nuts on the back. The plate is just a flat metal square... I used a dial caliper to find the center distance, drilled the plate, dropped it in there... and just before tightening 'em down, threaded on a piece from my slide hammer to pull against the plate.
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5639 |
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Lloyd- the fluid power and mechanical engineering, I have plenty of knowledge in... and as much as I've operated a D-17, doing anything other than checking oil was off-limits on Grandpa's fleet... even HE didn't work on his own stuff. (strange, but true)... so there's some workin'-on-it wisdom out there that others have, that I don't have yet... the kinds of things that don't show up in the service manuals, but should...
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5639 |
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Dennis - the 2-bolt sheave has been transported to my in-law's, house, Marshall will sneak over sometime in the next few days, pick it up from the in-laws, and drop it over where he picked it up... unless you want it somewhere else.
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allis restorer
Silver Level Joined: 05 Dec 2010 Location: Rib Lake, WI Points: 184 |
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Dave heres a pic of mine i just got done a little while ago putting a pump on my D17 Series 1.
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Go orange or Go home!!
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E7018
Bronze Level Joined: 07 Dec 2009 Points: 167 |
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Downtown Des Moines any easier?
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5639 |
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Could- my in-laws live just off the Van Meter exit... Marshall works weekends near the west end of 235...
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E7018
Bronze Level Joined: 07 Dec 2009 Points: 167 |
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If Des Moines seems easier, leave it with the receptionist at this place, say "for Clint".
http://www.bbsae.com/ |
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5639 |
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No workshop progress to report, but last Thursday I placed two orders... one from Surplus Center (in Lincoln, Nebraska) for some splined shaft collars and a pump... the other from Steiner Tractor to get an upper and lower radiator hose... was hoping to have 'em show up here around Wednesday/Thursday or so, so I'd be able some wrench and machine-shop time in (fab the coupler, measure the shaft, put the radiator back on, get the tin on, running and operational while I do the 'rest' of the engineering and fab work...
Wouldn't 'ya know it... BOTH orders have been sitting... (sigh). Dunno how it works elsewhere, but when an order is placed at my company, it gets processed, pulled, and if it's ready before 4pm, ships the same day... regardless of how flooded we get with shipments... (shrug) So I did something else instead. It DID ease up on the rain for a little bit, but would'a been a good evening to turn wrenches and make metal chips. |
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Steve M C/IL
Orange Level Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Location: shelbyville IL Points: 691 |
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Ordered from S/center 2 weeks ago today(Tues)....they said we're really busy,it'll 4-5 days before we can ship it.Got it the next week on Thursday.Oh well.
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BobHnwO
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Jenera Ohio Points: 693 |
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Dave,what is the number of the pump you got from Surplus Center,Thanks.
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Why do today what you can put off til tomorrow.
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5639 |
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Here's what I found, but if you're gonna copy my work, don't do it yet- let me 'fall off the horse' first!
9-4068-C 2.61 cu in CESSNA 25505LSA HYD PUMP 354.95I'll probably cut one coupler in half, and fit it to a disk to fix to the engine end, and use the other coupler half on a piece of shaft that's been splined at the engine-end. The Cessna pump is a very 'short' package, with ports located on the sides. 2.6ci will give me around 6 and a half gallons/minute at idle. Here's how I figured that out: 1 gallon - 231 cubic inches (remember, the Buick 231 V6 was a 'one gallon wonder') To make one gallon, the 2.6ci pump needs to rotate 231 / 2.6 = 89 rotations... at 89rpm, that's one gallon. Let's say I'm idling at 600rpm... that means I'll be churning through 600/89 = 6.7 gallons. At 1800, I'll be getting 1800/89 = 20. Now, as another noted above, 20gpm is quite a bit. Most guys won't need that much flow... matter of fact, unless you know that you'll be running a hydraulically motor driven load (like a brush, or saw, or auger, or concrete breaker), I'd say size the pump around half that. I chose this size knowing FULL WELL, that I'd probably run that pump only SOMETIMES, and swap to a smaller pump OTHER times. I'll build my whole system assuming 20gpm... hoses, valves... all of it... and if I don't need the capacity, I'll have an identical, but smaller pump... with ADAPTER FITTINGS, so that I can swap in say... a 1ci pump... which will put me at 1 gallon @ 231rpm... or about 3 gallons/minute at 600rpm. Much more reasonable for most uses... throttle it up to 1200, and you'll run a full hydraulic loader nicely. In my case, I'll be running a backhoe that works casually around 4-5gpm, and hard around 8... but a concrete breaker that requires 15 BY ITSELF. Granted, the breaker isn't exactly operating concurrently to swinging the boom, but I do push, lift, hook, and pry while the breaker is running, so NOT having the volume is very frustrating. I operate skid-steers with similar breakers, and they're all running 20gpm or so on the motor circuit, and I over-run them, so I'm certain that if I only fitted my setup for 6-8gpm, I'd be frustrated by slow progress and low power. My other option, would be to have a 'split pump', one high, and one low-volume... but it's added complexity, added drag, and they stick out farther from the front. I want this to be a tidy little setup that doesn't attract roosting chickens, doesn't get banged against things, and LOOKS like it was intended that way... but also... very, very, very easy to work on, and with. |
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |
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Dave, sounds like you have the bolster back on. I was going to say clean any junk out of that splined hole. The input shaft on your power steering valve slides in and out a small amount to function. And for those wondering, the pins for the u joint are tapered. A combination of an air hammer and one of the side frame rails to back up the shaft got the job done. A hand sledge and large punch pretty much just bounced.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5639 |
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Hee hee... thanks for the tip... but believe it or not, with all the crud I blasted off, that darned socket was somehow devoid of the grime-monster... there was a little I picked out, but most was from me movin' the bolster around.
My preferred mode of operation, is to hose everything down good with a pressure-washer before I start. I miss lots of places, so I end up with 'temporary tattoos', but biggest concern is to make it so I can find the darned fasteners, and don't lose grip of my wrenches... keeps me from getting unnecessary dents in my head... keeps the shop cleaner, but no matter how hard I try, there's always something in there somewhere. |
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sks72107
Silver Level Joined: 30 Sep 2010 Location: Logansport, IN Points: 441 |
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Id really like to see some pics of this after completion. I may do it to my series 1 someday, mine already has the 4 hole pulley. great work!!! |
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BobHnwO
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Jenera Ohio Points: 693 |
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Dave,Thanks for the info so far and keep riden that horse,lol.
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Why do today what you can put off til tomorrow.
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