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DMiller 
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
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 Topic: New Information on CAN-Bus
Posted: 01 Dec 2024 at 11:40am |
Seems as was not ever intended to be a Savings for Consumer or even a Boon to Accessory Installers or for Dealership Mechanics for Testing but a divisive method to Lock Out ANY Independent repair personnel and facilities or machine Owners to retain Repair Protocols by Manufacturers. Dealers are ONLY allowed enough information to base Diagnose, beyond that takes Computer connections into the Manufacturers database systems to deliver a repair protocol in most cases.
This has infiltrated from all the Auto and Truck distributors into the realm of Motorcycles and even small tech equipment as Mowers, as well FARM equipment. A True BANE of the industry as to selling these Fine Examples of Over Technification.
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DMiller
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
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Posted: 01 Dec 2024 at 11:50am |
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The reason I brought this up, a machine a friend has been using at his work developed a T/S issue, techs at the shop thought likely a Warranty for a Module or a Bad Ground somewhere, came down to a short in another Older Trailer without ABS that Presumably damaged a Module for TS and Brake Lamps while managing the ABS circuits. REQUIRED a Dealer Tech to inspect all the trailers used on it that was NOT Warranty Time, to ID and then determine what to repair to then replace the TS/ Brk/ABS ModuleS(Three Separate that Have to Work together). Close to $5400.00 for a "Partially" as well "Intermittently" grounded Circuit.
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ekjdm14
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Joined: 20 Aug 2024
Location: Manchester UK
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Posted: 01 Dec 2024 at 4:50pm |
Agree 100% on this, have been playing a little with electric assisted bikes recently & the amount of different protocols has made it such that I'm just not going to bother since nothing wants to work with anything else. Not so much an issue when it's cheaper Chinese crap where you can get a head unit for £15 or a motor for £30 but the "better quality" drive units I was given use their own protocol & the peripherals for these come with their own "brand tax" so they're pretty much useless as they sit.
Makes me glad I'm still with my old mechanical diesels for transport, specially since the alternator picked this last week to lock up & smoke the belt. Just park on a hill for starting & carry a spare battery for when it gets dark!
The older tech may not be as reliable (can't rely on it to work as intended as much as something 30 years newer) but infinitely more dependable (can always depend on it getting me home, even with a completely dead battery).
Not to mention I can get a used alternator for £40, drop it straight in & most likely replace the bearings in the failed one to have as a spare, not a thrown code or scan tool in sight...
Edited by ekjdm14 - 01 Dec 2024 at 4:53pm
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
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Posted: 01 Dec 2024 at 5:41pm |
CANbus is a friggin NIGHTMARE... Overly 'complicated' both in hardware and software. Sadly it's in every car, truck, heavy equipment, small boats, yeesh..... The best (worst ? ) example of how KRAPPY it is... Wife's 2019 Nissan last year with a real key... she comes in drops keys on kitchen counter and says car's still running...... WTH ?? I go out, get in, dash lit up for Xmas..., DRIVE it up to garage, keys STILL ON THE COUNTER... open hood, ask self WHERE is the battery? open glove box, scan the 450 page owner's manual to see WHERE'S THE BATTERY ?, nada, oh yeah engine STILL running...4-5 minutes later , engine shuts off. Grab keys, it starts fine, go park it, back to 'normal'.
Car goes to dealership, towed THREE times over 4-5 months. Since I cut code for microcontrollers, I surf the web, even find NISSAN paperwork on the possible problem,SO I email dealer to show WHAT is WRONG, and get told I'm wrong. What I FOUND out was the dealer had wrongly installed the factory remote starter computer.They bitchered the wiring and ,gee, everyone KNOWS CANbus HAS to have perfect wiring and connections. idiots..... didn't even look at THEIR tech bulletins... OK..time passes.. Wife decides to drive to BC and back ( 10,000 KM +- 6,000 miles ). Car won't start (acting funny ,again ). She gets dinged $80 for an inspection and is told battery is nogood. $350 for a new one or....sitting down ? ... they can recharge her BAD battery...... She comes home and her son replaces the battery for $120 AND disconnects the remote start computer... goes on roadtrip fine. Meanwhile neighbour gets 30 meat birds and needs a battery for the fencer. Yup, I loan out her 'bad' battery. ZERO problems...heck it's just 5 years old. ALL of this BS, cost $$$$ due to lousy, ill conceived, poorly executed use of CANbus,which itself is a friggin NIGHTMARE..... ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH...... Sad thing is my little Kubota has a CANbus port on it.
OK, vent over
BTW... the PROBLEM was the 'remote start' computer didn't communicate with the other 6 computers, so the ECU goes into a 'limp mode' type loop until 15 minutes later when the remote starter finally times out, even though it'd never been told to start the car.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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DMiller
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Posted: 02 Dec 2024 at 4:08am |
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Just on a Auto Repair site, the Auto Maker Hyundai is eliminating touch Screens in their autos, MAY move away from Electronic Switching and CAN Bus as to continuing issues and warranty concerns. Simplicity is Better.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 02 Dec 2024 at 6:39am |
The 'auto environment' is a challenging one ! Can be super hot, bitter cold on a daily if not hourly basis. Requires EVERY component to be high quality and MADE for 'auto' use. Vibration is also a huge problem, along with EMP aka frying the alternator.
There's a LOT of Kubota tractors that their ECU gets destroyed when changing the battery. 4-5 THOUSAND dollars the owner has to pay even though it's a DESIGN DEFECT from the FACTORY !
The problem with going back to the 'KISS' method, is the genie's out of the bottle. 'they' found out 'computers' are CHEAP to make and can do 'everything' we need, like GPS, active braking,29 cameras, .001*F heated seats, etc. Heck an entire billion buck INDUSTRY has been created on the 'simple, need to have' start/stop push button. Dumb down to physical keys and car thefts grind to a halt so far less cars resold, less taxes collected, cheaper insurance rates, fewer cops, less media( no news...)
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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SteveM C/IL
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Shelbyville IL
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Posted: 02 Dec 2024 at 7:56am |
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I believe you nailed it Jay. Life could be so simple....
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ekjdm14
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Joined: 20 Aug 2024
Location: Manchester UK
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Posted: 02 Dec 2024 at 8:32am |
 jaybmiller wrote:
The problem with going back to the 'KISS' method, is the genie's out of the bottle. 'they' found out 'computers' are CHEAP to make and can do 'everything' we need, like GPS, active braking,29 cameras, .001*F heated seats, etc. Heck an entire billion buck INDUSTRY has been created on the 'simple, need to have' start/stop push button. Dumb down to physical keys and car thefts grind to a halt so far less cars resold, less taxes collected, cheaper insurance rates, fewer cops, less media( no news...)
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Nailed it down 100%. The peak of auto security IMO was Ford's PATS transponder keys of the mid 90s. Not got the key? You ain't going nowhere without swapping the entire ECU & lock set. And as to the "safety" aspect of modern cars, honestly believe we'd be safer if cars had a spike instead of an airbag & belts. Folk would hesitate to scroll facebook if they knew hitting someone would pierce their face for them!
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Ray54
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Location: Paso Robles, Ca
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Posted: 02 Dec 2024 at 12:19pm |
ekjdm14 wrote:
jaybmiller wrote:
The problem with going back to the 'KISS' method, is the genie's out of the bottle. 'they' found out 'computers' are CHEAP to make and can do 'everything' we need, like GPS, active braking,29 cameras, .001*F heated seats, etc. Heck an entire billion buck INDUSTRY has been created on the 'simple, need to have' start/stop push button. Dumb down to physical keys and car thefts grind to a halt so far less cars resold, less taxes collected, cheaper insurance rates, fewer cops, less media( no news...)
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Nailed it down 100%. The peak of auto security IMO was Ford's PATS transponder keys of the mid 90s. Not got the key? You ain't going nowhere without swapping the entire ECU & lock set. And as to the "safety" aspect of modern cars, honestly believe we'd be safer if cars had a spike instead of an airbag & belts. Folk would hesitate to scroll facebook if they knew hitting someone would pierce their face for them! |
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DMiller
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Posted: 02 Dec 2024 at 2:30pm |
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I am rather fond of the base Idea, a Cell Phone NO MATTER Whose it is becomes Active in a Car or Truck, the steering AUTO moves to Shoulder and Brakes AUTO APPLY. Done Deal.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 02 Dec 2024 at 2:59pm |
But I don't have a cell phone..... I did however had 2 razor blades under the dash of my '67 Mustang convertible that I never locked. It was never stolen...lotta blood on the floor mat one morning though.
All the new rides are easy to prevent being driven away for $25 + install cost(1/2hr).
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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DMiller
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
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Posted: 03 Dec 2024 at 6:23am |
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Evidently some do take notice and do have interest in Manufacturing. Received a Personal Email from a PACCAR Rep that evidently is watching for complaints and issue remarks on other forums. His insight was such that Sales are well OFF in his marketing world, his contacts across the globe are also seeing the concerns I have noted. European manufacturers have always attempted to ‘Self Protect’ as to repairs or repairability along with engineered in Planned Obsolescence. He noted cannot continue as he visualizes with this electronics garbage in Warranty or General Repair and that the manufacturers are making notes as to working in changes here. Obligated to foreign manufacturing suppliers that pushed the junk and are now with Trump/GOP back on the lead front MIGHT see that revert over next few years unless Liberalism makes a comeback. NiMBY-ism is a prominent trait of that side where over regulates US production.
His name and email was requested to remain private so will only share these partial comments.
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DMiller
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Posted: 14 Dec 2024 at 5:02am |
PACCAR just announced a Recall of ALL 2021-2025 Trucks they produced, a 'Module' that covers several "Safety Functions" has damaged Programming and will reprogram ALL of these at no charge or replace bad modules. Cannot start until Feb 2025 as NO PARTS and NOT yet Designed/Written the Programming changes.
Edited by DMiller - 14 Dec 2024 at 5:09am
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tadams(OH)
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Posted: 14 Dec 2024 at 8:18am |
What about all the Ram trucks recalled for brake problems
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DMiller
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Posted: 14 Dec 2024 at 8:41am |
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All these new fangled Auto braking, ABS, Motion Sensor, impending collision sensor crap is numbing the public as to How to Drive a Motor Vehicle. Makes it all the worse NOT better
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Alberta Phil
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Posted: 14 Dec 2024 at 9:52am |
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All that so called "safety crap" is unnecessary to an alert driver . Unfortunately, they are as rare as common sense. Most "drivers" on the road these days are merely "steering wheel holders", and that includes a lot of the HD truck drivers too!
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 14 Dec 2024 at 10:18am |
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2000 GMC 3/4 pickup - been draining batteries for months - hooked charger /maintainer on and would start when needed - replaced alternator as it figured by test bad diode .
Well somehow charger power failed , both batteries dead as evidently alternator was just one problem , charged batteries , fuel pump won't run no pressure to fuel rail .
Just had pump replaced , corroded connections on tank to pump internally . Next fuse to ECM blown , replaced , now find 700 mil amp draw on ECM circuit -
Small shop near me has truck now - 6 hours of trying to find the draw with no luck so far - thinking it would be cheaper to junk the truck and take the loss .
Odd all the dash lights (warning lights) quit as did the shift selector light but still ran OK 2 months back . Now testing one battery after charging said 12.8 V but test shows under load 10.3 V and 200 Amp from 850 Amp rating .
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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DMiller
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Posted: 14 Dec 2024 at 11:29am |
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My 2010 Impala has a Bad heater duct driver motor, runs at random times regardless car on or off. Worthless junk, cables did not do this.
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DMiller
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Posted: Yesterday at 4:44am |
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Another Magic Use of Modern Tech, Ipads or Tablets, for Maintenance or Dispatch messages. See them now in fleet trucks as another distraction where people have been using Dash Data screens on cars for a number of years and are the leading cause of Distracted driving behind Iphones.
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Have it set to give a shock to the driver playing on phone when the traffic lite changes. 
