The WD-35/WD-45

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   I wish my mind wandered like the good Dr's does.  So thankful for these kinds of posts.  Happy Thanksgiving everyone for continuing to make Allis-Chalmers an adventure!

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EPALLIS Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Illinois Points: 1111	Post Options Post Reply Quote EPALLIS Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 1:12pm
	I wish my mind wandered like the good Dr's does. So thankful for these kinds of posts. Happy Thanksgiving everyone for continuing to make Allis-Chalmers an adventure!

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captaindana Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Fort Plain, NY Points: 2373	Post Options Post Reply Quote captaindana Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 1:03pm
	Great reading Dave! Thank you!
	Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana

DaveKamp Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5641	Post Options Post Reply Quote DaveKamp Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 12:26pm
	Yeah, it's interesting to see what companies did, and did not do. A really good illustration of just one facet of it came to me in form of an engine for a Dixon 308 ZTR I owned many years ago. The original engine was an 8hp, and it expired with a bang one day, yielding a picture window in the block. I looked up the parts lists for the various models, and like any manufacturer, they had a basic chassis, which was fitted with different engines and different decks... and initially they were all mechanical (cone-clutch) drivelines, at some point Dixon introduced a hydrostatic drive module that'd fit the same form-factor chassis, so they offered it in clutch, hydrostat, several deck sizes, and according to the deck and drive, engine size. They would fit the 8hp to 30" deck with mechanical drive If you chose a 36" deck, you got a 10hp, or a 42" deck 12hp If you chose a hydrostatic drive, the 30" got a 10hp, and the 36" deck got 12hp... So basically, it was sized on the deck, and any hydro was 2hp more, right? My 8hp's spec number was SUPPOSED to be stamped in a particular spot, that as a result of the aforementioned appearance of air-cooled crankcase, the serial and spec numbers had exited my property at a velocity just shy of Mach 1... So I called Dixon to figure out which spec I'd need for a replacement. The salesman (IIRC, his name was Norm?) looked it up and told me, and said "Hey- do you need an engine?" I said Of Course! I asked him how much, he threw me a price that was WELL UNDER what I'd expected to pay... so I jumped on it. Two days later, there's a box on my doorstep, with a 17hp Intek in it. I called him back, said there's been some mistake, he sent me a 17hp instead of an 8. he said "Put it on, and use it". Well gee... will it fit? "Yep, bolts on perfect, same bolt pattern, same shaft, and I threw in a pair of fuel tank brackets to fit yours on it. You'll love it- it's dead quiet, smooth, and more power than you'll ever need, so it'll last forever" So I asked why they sent a 17hp instead of an 8. He explained that they don't BUY 8's anymore. They don't by 10s, 12's, 14's, or 16's. Why? Because if they buy all those different sizes, they have to stock, and organize, and keep track of four different engines, and then figure out which ones go to which assemblies, and all the drawings for each of the build sheets has to be updated to fit all those combinations... But if they just buy 4x as many 17's, they NEVER have to worry about having sufficient power, they don't have to maintain 20 different combinations of deck and drive sizes, wiring diagrams, parts lists, etc... And the cost-out-the-door is lower on ALL machines, because the manufacturing support overhead has been slashed to next-to-nothing. And... when they order just that one engine size, they get a much better deal, because they're buying 40,000 17hp engines, rather than 10000 8's, 10000 10's, etc. Another example was the transmission in my '72 Jeep Commando. It was a Turbo Hydramatic 400, and it was unordinary because it was neither a Buick-Olds-Pontiac, or Chevy bellhousing bolt pattern, it was a Caddillac/Bentley/Rolls-Royce bolt pattern... and it had an adapter ring to fit the CBRR pattern to it's AMC 304 V8. Yes, this was totally normal. Why? Because of production volume economics. The largest volume of TH400 cases, was the B-O-P case with conventional long tailshaft housing... it was available in every full-size GM sedan and station wagon from inception through what... 1979 or so. Next most common was the Chevy pattern, it was most volumetric in the shorter tailshaft/transfer case variety because it was used in cars AND light trucks, both 2wd and 4wd, but the Hydramatic division made less of those, because it was JUST Chevy/GMC. When it came to bolt patterns, Caddillac, Bentley, and Rolls-Royce used the same pattern, and had the Hydramatic Division make them a case specifically intended for use in their heavy sedans and limousines. They used a long tailshaft assembly... BUT... For 'specialty' customers, they wanted to be able to adapt a transfer case, so that armored limos could have a driven front axle TOO... and there's LOTS of big old Cad/Bentley/RR limos that have a Dana 60 front axle tucked under there with run-flat tires carrying a body filled with bullet-absorptive armor. So why the Jeep? Easy- The Cad/Bent/RR transfer case was the LOWEST production volume of T-case housing. By selling them, with T-case shafting and an adapter ring kit, they could INCREASE the production volume of a low-production part, and bring the cost DOWN, while serving multiple market demands, hence, it's simpler, and more profitable, while bringing that value to the customer's end product. Sometimes, the dollar cost isn't where you THINK it is... but at the end of the day, when there's a guy signing a deal, the dollars are there. Back on the WD35... Think of what it'd be, if they made a WD35 with 4wd, a flat floor, full live hydraulics, fully live PTO, power steering, a combination 3point and snap hitch, 12v lighting all around... and a heated cab option? If they split off and made the WD35 engine AND the WD45 engine, it would have made BOTH engines end production costs more. They'd be better off doing what Dixon did... Making the engine good for 55hp, labelling it as a 45hp in the WD45, and labeling it as 35 in the WD35... and laughing when it stomped-daisys all over the competetor's 35hp tractor. My Grandfather was really tight with his money... he didn't pay for stuff he didn't think made a difference in his dollar, which is probably why he stuck to Allis. He decided it was time to relegate the 1-ton 4x4 to farm-only operation, and get a smaller 2wd pickup for errand running. He wanted a diesel stick-shift, so he bought a Ram D50 (a Mitsubishi) turbodiesel. He didn't want to pay for the 'optional' 5-speed (I don't think he ever saw a speedometer reach 55mph in his lifetime)... so he harangued the dealership until they agreed to sell him a 4-speed. They 'ordered' it, and a few days later, he went to pick it up, sure enough, the stick showed 4-speed. I was 18 when we were coming back from (what turned out to be my last trip with him to) the sale barn. He'd had this truck for 5 years or so by then, and asked ME if I wanted to drive. Sure! I hopped in, started it up, and he reminded me that 'It's a diesel'... "Okay Grandpa"... As we were goin' up the valley blacktop, he said "She's a diesel, giver some, feel the power"... so I did... just a little. "Hear the turbo?) "Yeah, I do"... (The boost gauge made it to about 5psi). We got to a straight stretch and he asked me how it felt, I said "I dunno... there's something not quite right here"... He said "What?" "I dunno, hangon"... I pushed in the clutch, blipped the throttle a little, watched the boost gauge, and said "Hmm..."... I pulled it back one gear, eased it out, and brought up the throttle, and the boost gauge came back up to about 10, then I rolled on more throttle, boost came up to gauge upper normal, and I chopped the throttle, and the wastegate let out a little hiss... He said "What was THAT?" I pushed the clutch back in, backed up another gear blipped the throttle, eased it out, then mashed it to the floor, boost went to limit and she took off like it's ass was on fire. His eyes turned into saucers as I went past 3rd, then shifted into 4th with that little diesel running 4200rpm, he thought it was 'running away'... I said "I figured out what's wrong, Grandpa" (Whilst he was conteplating a new pair of underwear), I pushed in the clutch, dropped the throttle and said "Watch This!!" I slid the shifter over to the far right, past the pattern indication, and down, Into 5th gear. Let out the clutch, RPMS down at 2100rpm, and we're going 70mph. Two hours later, we're sitting on the porch, drinking lemonade, and he said: "Those Sons-of-Bitshes tricked me... they just switched the shifter knob, and lowered the price to sell me a truck they already had" "Yeah, Grandpa, and YOU got the better deal..." See, it would've cost Mitsu/Dodge AND the dealer MORE MONEY to ship out a pickup with a 4 speed, than just change the damned knob (and not tell him that it's a 5-speed). He also didn't realize that, if he REALLY wanted to enjoy the diesel, he should give it some boost, and SPIN it... after all, the 4D55T was 2.3L that's easily 80hp, and it was MOST fuel efficient when it wasn't lugged down below boost range...
	Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.

DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19559	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 10:55am
	My thinking was the actual production costs per basic machine would have become a little less because of the increased volume. With the 12 inch rear wheels and 14.9 tires available only on the WD-45 (as standard equipment), that in itself creates more dollars in its production costs and more performance value to the end user. The difference in rear tire sizes also gives the WD-35 a slightly lower gear ratio to accommodate 25% or so less engine HP. The only serious casting differences between the two models is the front steering support. That part would still utilize the old WC casting for the WD-35 and a newly created casting for the WD-45. I suppose one 125 lb rear wheel weight on each side could have been standard equipment on the WD-45 in an effort to further separate their differences and build costs. All said, there still would have been more 45's sold than 35's, but it would have made sales to a customer who simply didn't need 45 HP, when he could save $$$ buying 35 HP instead. At $5 bucks per HP a WD-35 would have been $1750 and the WD-45 at $2,250. Those numbers are not too far off from what they actually were from the beginning WD in 1948 and the early model WD-45's in 1953. Again, just dreaming....... For comparisons there were the 190 and 190XT........210 and 220......Deere 4000 and 4020.......IH 706 and 806.....

HudCo Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 29 Jan 2013 Location: Plymouth Utah Points: 3296	Post Options Post Reply Quote HudCo Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 10:30am
	i am still stuck on the part where you have to crawl into the tractor seat instead of sitting on a platform with a flat floor like the farmalls or the deeres and olivers

DaveKamp Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5641	Post Options Post Reply Quote DaveKamp Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 9:45am
	I don't think there's anything WRONG with the idea of a WD35/wd45, other than the fact that having two of basically the same footprint, with different horsepower means you've got basically two models of the same platform in production, with basically same production costs out the door, competing for the same buyer... Or the other way of looking at it- The total resource cost (basic material, process, assembly logistics and space) of building just ONE higher-power engine, one chassis, and one platform in double volume, is less than the cost of building the more powerful version. I THINK it was Edsel that was asked about why he ignored the big, comfortable old sedan, or a sporty convertible, said "An old man will buy a young man's car... a young man won't buy an old man's car". That exact thing doesn't apply here, but the concept is how to respond to a divided market mentality. In the case of two tractors, what would the advantage of the smaller power be? significantly lower price? fitting in a smaller space? more maneuverability? Lower overhead clearance? I don't think Allis could have made the out-the-door price low enough of a WD-35 to make it more attractive than the WD-45... and (I could be totally wrong here but) I don't think they could have gotten it out the door any SOONER... as engine improvements to make that additional power really wasn't challenging in technology or scope. Allis KINDA did the same thing by putting the B/C/CA engine form factor in the WD chassis (The RC from '38-41). At that point, I don't think it was so much a function of sales price or manufacturing cost as it was simple availability of the parts to do so... it was a wartime production situation- they had the engines for one tractor, chassis for another, and so they built 'em up with what they had left... and people bought them because they could GET them... When I can't sleep (and it's darn rare I can't) I consider what could have been, had the biz world not been so gridlocked with patent aggression. If full-flow live hydraulics, full live PTO, draft gear lift and coupling, ergonomics, and all the other great things we take for granted NOW, would have been negotiated through in say... 1949, we would have had much better machines working the fields three decades sooner... and many of the great systems, and great companies we HAD, would still be in business to offer options for the marketplace.
	Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.

IBWD MIke Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 08 Apr 2012 Location: Newton Ia. Points: 3464	Post Options Post Reply Quote IBWD MIke Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 9:33am
	Interesting. Had they been able to do that it would have been a great strategy. I'd venture a guess that it was contemplated. Needing to get the WD to market probably got in the way. They probably weren't tooled up to start 45 production. Have thought many times that trying to compete with the Farmalls of the day with the WC-WD-WD 45 was akin to bringing a knife to a gun fight! I love my 45's but trying to compete with a 450..... Not being able to sleep is not a problem I suffer from, kind of the opposite. Out in the cold working, (or standing around at an auction), get in for the evening, some supper, adult beverages, and a hot shower and I'm out about 20 minutes later!

Pat the Plumber CIL Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Springfield,Il Points: 4681	Post Options Post Reply Quote Pat the Plumber CIL Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 8:44am
	Live or independent pto and hydraulics . Maybe a differential lock . Hi lo power director and a 6 cylinder wd 55 , 65 . Oh one can dream what could have been.
	You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber;Crap rolls down hill,Hot is on the left and Don't bite your fingernails 1964 D-17 SIV 3 Pt.WF,1964 D-15 Ser II 3pt.WF ,1960 D-17 SI NF,1956 WD 45 WF.

DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19559	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 7:28am
	I don't really have an issue with the outboard final drives and a 28 inch tire per say. Take a 16.9 x 28 tire for example. It has more square inches of "foot print" on the ground than a 13.6 x 38 inch tire. So we're talking like a D-17 versus a 2510 John Deere or 400 Farmall. How about an 18.4 x 28 versus a 16.9 x 34 ?? A One-Eighty versus a 1650 Oliver for comparison. The 18.4 x 28 again has MORE rubber on the ground. The D-19 size chassis was a good place to redesign the finals for a larger diameter tire. Just too late in history and lacking in features others had.

darrel in ND Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 22 Nov 2009 Location: Hebron, ND Points: 8587	Post Options Post Reply Quote darrel in ND Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 7:27am
	It's like the plow peddler (Walter B????, lol) once wrote a story on; on so many occasions, Allis Chalmers saved failure from the brink of success Darrel

Charlie175 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Shenandoah, VA Points: 6351	Post Options Post Reply Quote Charlie175 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 7:16am
	I think AC was stuck on the drop axle design for far too long. Straight axles were far less complicated and offered larger wheel sizes for better ride comfort. Sure AC still made a great plowing/cultivator tractor with traction booster but for all purpose use they were getting left behind. I like the idea of WD35/45, kind of relates to the 210/220 idea. Lot of common parts to reduce costs.
	Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD

Ed (Ont) Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 08 Nov 2009 Location: New Lowell, Ont Points: 1223	Post Options Post Reply Quote Ed (Ont) Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 7:08am
	And that gets me thinking that I need taller brackets for my 14.9's. I guess I could fix that with a bit of work. Lol.

Ed (Ont) Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 08 Nov 2009 Location: New Lowell, Ont Points: 1223	Post Options Post Reply Quote Ed (Ont) Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 7:05am
	That would have been great!! You should have been their chief engineer or designer.

DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19559	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 6:09am
	When I can't sleep at night, my mind wonders what should have been. In 1948 the release of the new "WD" tractor series, should have had TWO models: the WD-35 and WD-45. The specs: same exact engine block (no side plate) and tall cylinder head and everything else, EXCEPT the pistons and crankshaft stroke are different between the 201 and 226. Also the same WD-45 manifold but different carburetors and air cleaners. The chassis would be identical with the constant mesh/helical gear transmission design in both. Hand clutch 2 plates on the WD-35 and 3 plates on the WD-45. Foot clutch 6 springs on the WD-35 and 9 springs on the WD-45. Front steering support is from the WC (hollow) for the WD-35 and the 90 lbs heavier (solid) for the WD-45. Rear wheels 10 inch wide with 12.4 x 28's on the WD-35 and 12 inch wide rims with 14.9 x 28's only offered on the WD-45. Fluid filled both models. Taller fender brackets on the 14.9 tires. This dual model/dual HP offering would have given A-C a much sooner and better foothold on competing against the H and M Farmall tractors, which were the "King" of that time. Had this happened, the D-series should have then been 3 to 5 years sooner..............sigh.