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HD6G-Need Help-Clutches seized |
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Dale
Silver Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Ontario Points: 375 |
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Posted: 11 Nov 2022 at 6:20am |
Well, the cost of sitting and not being used I guess. Been in dry, not heated storage for about 6 years. Rubber boots intact so likely no mice issue (which was the reason rebuilt clutches). Just before being parked both clutches rebuilt with new parts. Everything worked as it should. Went to move it. Starts like a charm. Moves forward and reverse like it should. Won't turn either way. Drove it around. Used backhoe (factory tractomotive unit) to turn it. No luck Any ideas how to break them free. Any help sure appreciated.
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Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41609 |
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If fiber discs - probably some rust - or you got mice up through the drain hole (3/4 hole) in bottom of case .
Can try pipe plug in case drain , block clutch levers back to release clutches , fill case with diesel , let set for time , try again with diesel still in cases . Machine against immovable object and with clutches still blocked cycle master clutch to load clutch packs . OR remove clutches and free up on bench - install HD11 bi-metal friction plates |
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gemdozer
Orange Level Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Points: 989 |
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Did you use the brake pedal for turning and you should have 2 inch max free travel on brake pedal and you should have 3 inchs free travel at the top off stering cluch lever
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Transaxial
Bronze Level Joined: 19 Apr 2014 Location: Tofield,Alberta Points: 96 |
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My 1969 Champion 562 grader has a stuck clutch. I believe it is a multi disc wet clutch and the oil is milky so indicates water. I have owned this grader for 20? years and it has been stuck before so I would just start it in gear after warming it up and put it to work while holding the clutch pedal down. Usually not very long while working it the clutch would break free and work normally. About 12 - 14 years ago my cousin was doing a private subdivision and wanted to buy a grader. I didn't really want to sell it but told him I would sell him a 1/2 share so we both still have access. He lives about 24 miles away so it is feasible to just drive the grader if either of us needs it. He phoned me a month ago and said the grader is yours. Come and get it. I am done with it but the clutch is stuck. Haven't been able to get it freed up this time. That little 4 - 71 in it just runs like a dream. It is not an Allis but wondering if anyone has experience with a stuck wet clutch like this? This grader has always sat outside but the clutch is enclosed in the housing so oil doesn't leak or get contaminated. Except for water apparently.
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Dale
Silver Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Ontario Points: 375 |
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Thanks for the replies everyone. Good advice that will help me. Thanks again
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doctorcorey
Orange Level Joined: 17 Jul 2011 Location: S. KC Missouri Points: 589 |
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Like the others said, in your case, they'll probably break loose with a little working. My left clutch hasn't broken loose, even with soaking, hammering, clutching, and driving the tractor around with the lever tied back. Trouble with these, if the clutch plates are stuck in the hub or drum, you can't pull the clutch out . I sure hate to have to cut up a 300$ drum to get it out.
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Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel
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Dale
Silver Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Ontario Points: 375 |
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I hope you're correct. I replaced the clutches because mice ate the rubber boot on one side and built a nest. You know the rest of the story. At least with one working you could manoeuvre using forward and reverse. With both frozen we had to use the backhoe to swing the rear end to turn at all. Likely won't be until spring before I get at this project-sometimes I think if I didn't have bad luck I'd have no luck at all
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Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
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After pulling your brake band pin/pins on the frozen side, tie the upper brake shoe back exposing the brake drum surface. Using strong bungee straps, tie your clutch release handles back in the normally released position and elevate the tracks clear of the ground/floor. Grab a torch with a small rosebud tip and while the frozen clutch assy. is spinning and driving the track, "play" the torch on the surface of the brake drum. Bring the temperature up but it doesn't need to be red in color. The purpose is to expand the internal diameter of the drum until clutch release pressure overcomes the bind and the clutch will release suddenly. You will see this with the release handles wanting to move from the tension of the bungee straps pulling. I've done exactly this on a couple tractors that have sat for years and elevating the temperature of the parts does work, but takes time. Just don't "dwell" in a single spot of the drum or mechanism for any length of time as no need to destroy parts unnecessarily. You can also do this to the clutch hub but the heat could be detrimental to the pressure plate springs. Really no need to get anything hot enough to cook seals, but heat will help break any bonds. Have you tried a bar in the sprocket teeth between the track frame yet? While holding the stuck clutch handle back, ease the main clutch in as you don't want to break parts. This will load the steering clutch much harder than normal usage will. Before doing this ensure your track is tighter than normal: |
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doctorcorey
Orange Level Joined: 17 Jul 2011 Location: S. KC Missouri Points: 589 |
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I have thought about using a 'heavy bar' to block the sprocket. I just don't want to torture this old tractor unless I have to. On the other hand, when the tracks were stuck bad, the clutch did slip multiple turns, but then the track broke loose, and here I am. I suppose the strain on the finals (with blocking the sprocket) couldn't be any worse than when the clutch slipped with the tracks stuck. I had considered that I might have stripped some of the clutch plate splines, and just jammed the whole thing into a warped, twisted mass. When I have finished 'rebuilding' this hokey sheet metal exhaust manifold, I'll give it a whirl. Thanks.
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Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel
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doctorcorey
Orange Level Joined: 17 Jul 2011 Location: S. KC Missouri Points: 589 |
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Well, I tried it with the 'heavy bar' in the track sprocket. It was heavy, solid tool steel and it bent it into a nice curve. That clutch isn't going to break loose this way. I will try the heating process. If this doesn't work, I will be forced to cut the drum. How to do that is something I'd appreciate any info as to what apparatus to use to cut it. That's a lot of metal to remove.
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Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel
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gemdozer
Orange Level Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Points: 989 |
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Did you try to pull out the stering cluch before cutting the stering cluch drum and did you knock on drum easly with a hammer it could help.
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Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
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That bar to block the track sprocket should have been at least 1.500" in diameter or it would bend far to easily under the force the sprocket will impart. It would also need to firmly bottomed into the gullet of the sprocket teeth and anchored to stay there.
Another thing you can do is remove the front brake band pin, (through the side of the case) unbolt the clutch assembly, then remove it from the tractor. Place the clutch assembly into a shop press and put about five tons of force on the pressure plate and soak the assembly with a penetrate. Let this dwell but keep it wet. Apply and release pressure repeatedly but don't deform parts. Once a minute amount of movement happens the assembly should break free. You will probably need to disassemble the clutch to further derust and clean things up.
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doctorcorey
Orange Level Joined: 17 Jul 2011 Location: S. KC Missouri Points: 589 |
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Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel
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doctorcorey
Orange Level Joined: 17 Jul 2011 Location: S. KC Missouri Points: 589 |
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Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel
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Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
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It is the driven discs that are frozen via rust to the drum usually. This is where the heat comes into play. Surprised you cannot depress the center hub as all I've worked with will move.
Play the heat while the drum is spinning with the declutch handle pulled back. If the heat works it will let go with a snap. I know that is rehash but important.
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doctorcorey
Orange Level Joined: 17 Jul 2011 Location: S. KC Missouri Points: 589 |
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Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel
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Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
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I understand what you are saying but I have never seen any steering clutch assys "piloted" onto a flange type mount. All have been a slight compression, or interference fit between the driving, and driven flange(s). Many dry clutch setups have been rusted to the mating companion flanges and this can take force to separate. Upward pressure from a crane and high frequency vibration along with heat work well together. Those are just my observations and maybe your setup is different?
I helped on an HD5 many years ago that had been pulled from a river and sat a couple years afterward. The clutches were stuck badly and I used a shop gantry for the upward force and an oak 2X4 with a 12lb sledgehammer impacting from the side and when it came free, was violent. I didn't have enough force with the crane to pick the tractor up, but was close. I used chain straps from my rollback truck to wrap the drum as it offered little rebound action when stretched and released, but did not score the drum friction surface. I had prior removed the brake shoes in pieces which were replaced with new.
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doctorcorey
Orange Level Joined: 17 Jul 2011 Location: S. KC Missouri Points: 589 |
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Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel
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gemdozer
Orange Level Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Points: 989 |
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You could make sure with your finger each side drum if all the bolts are removed and no head bolts brook in if can have side bitt loosed try with a screw driver to separate a bit the flange to the drum more far try with shisel and he has to be loose complet side and you could knock on the drum and instaled a small chaine or slingne he should loosed the other side
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Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
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I remember that small lip now but normally the clutch should have just a bit of clearance when the bolts are removed. I wonder if you have some "rust jacking" going on inside the clutch assy causing this to be swollen and forcing the gap closed?
I think the heating of the drum and/or parts while they spin with the release handle tied back would be my first choice as hydraulic pressure against the parts that are frozen could damage the bearings or shaft that drives the final on that side. As Hector referred all the bolts did come out and none twisted off?
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Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
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Ages Cat
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Hutchinson, MN Points: 688 |
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I have had this issue with (3) tractors. HD-5, HD-6 and HD-11. We disassembled all
tractor steering clutches. Unless the fibre clutches are removed and bi-metalic discs installed, the fibre will attract moisture and rust. All drive teeth were coated with anti seize compound also. You need to be able to steer it with the levers and not oversteer with the brakes. The drums can be beat with a sledge hammer, an old fix, but unless you rust proof it, it will happen again. When we buy our next HD-6, it will have wet clutches.
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Curt Anderson
HD3, HD5B, HD6AG,HD6B dozer, I-400,615, 616,620,720,ACP25 lift truck, 1956 D Grader, AC 540 loader, AC #84 plow, Simplicity tractors, Agco MT225, Agco 2025, |
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doctorcorey
Orange Level Joined: 17 Jul 2011 Location: S. KC Missouri Points: 589 |
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Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel
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Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
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Broken link removed.
Edited by Codger - 27 Nov 2022 at 10:52pm |
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doctorcorey
Orange Level Joined: 17 Jul 2011 Location: S. KC Missouri Points: 589 |
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Codger, link you provided doesn't go anywhere..what was it about?
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Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel
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Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
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HD-6 clutches and procedures. I'll look into it and find a way to send it.
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Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
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Go here: https://www.tractorparts.com/
Scroll down to HD-6 - HD6G Steering Clutch Parts and look around on that page. Lot of good information along with parts supplies.
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