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exSW 
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 Topic: Tesla Megapacks
Posted: 24 Sep 2022 at 6:14pm |
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Found out a fun fact. The car battery paks have about 10x the capacity as the "Power Wall" they market.
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Learning AC...slowly
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Walker
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Posted: 24 Sep 2022 at 5:38pm |
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Solyndra resurfacing?
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Dorix
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Posted: 24 Sep 2022 at 7:38am |
I think Tesla is gonna make a whole lot more money with the power systems then the car division will in the future.
I was told once, and mind you I have no idea if this person is right, that the cars are mostly a platform to recover the costs for research and development of batteries and related components.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 24 Sep 2022 at 7:35am |
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Lead-acid batteries are 'proven technology'.
The major advantage of lithium-type batteries is their energy/weight characteristic. They have huge disadvantages in most other aspects.
Lead-acid batteries are heavy; this really isn't important in a stationary application.
Lead batteries are one of the most recycled items on the planet.
Lithium batteries, not so much.
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DMiller
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Posted: 24 Sep 2022 at 7:22am |
Lithium Battery
Powder Lithium
Fire
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JW in MO
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Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 6:21pm |
 DaveKamp wrote:
Running an internal combustion engine to generate electricity, to charge a chemical storage battery array, which is then used to drive electric motors, is a 3-stage net loss of efficiency.
You're getting about 16% thermodynamic efficiency going from combustion to mechanical, about 73% from mechanical to electric, about 84% storing it as a chemical battery, then 73% turning it from electrical back into mechanical.
Let's quantify that by using an arbitrary number of 255,000btu of heat energy... that's 100hp of thermal input... which yields 18hp of mechanical output, that translates to 13.4 kw/hr, but you're losing 27% for battery charging which yields 9.8kwhr... Storing it chemically generates heat, knocks it down to 8.232kw/hr convert it back and you'll get 7.15 mechanical, but only 73% makes it to the wheels for 6.009kw, or 8.05 hp/hr.
That's staggering losses, when one could just accept the first 18% by going from internal combustion to mechanical.
And internal combustion of liquid fuels is a much higher energy-storage medium per weight and volume, and it's recharge is dramatically faster, substantially safer, and exhibits NO transfer loss (gravity will do it!).
Those who think it makes sense, understand neither physics, nor math.
[QUOTE=TramwayGuy] I hadn’t heard of the Tesla Megapacks; but they seem to be proven technology.. |
Hmmmm, wonder which one they will label "Settled Science."
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DMiller
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Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 6:25am |
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 12:00am |
Running an internal combustion engine to generate electricity, to charge a chemical storage battery array, which is then used to drive electric motors, is a 3-stage net loss of efficiency.
You're getting about 16% thermodynamic efficiency going from combustion to mechanical, about 73% from mechanical to electric, about 84% storing it as a chemical battery, then 73% turning it from electrical back into mechanical.
Let's quantify that by using an arbitrary number of 255,000btu of heat energy... that's 100hp of thermal input... which yields 18hp of mechanical output, that translates to 13.4 kw/hr, but you're losing 27% for battery charging which yields 9.8kwhr... Storing it chemically generates heat, knocks it down to 8.232kw/hr convert it back and you'll get 7.15 mechanical, but only 73% makes it to the wheels for 6.009kw, or 8.05 hp/hr.
That's staggering losses, when one could just accept the first 18% by going from internal combustion to mechanical.
And internal combustion of liquid fuels is a much higher energy-storage medium per weight and volume, and it's recharge is dramatically faster, substantially safer, and exhibits NO transfer loss (gravity will do it!).
Those who think it makes sense, understand neither physics, nor math.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 10:57pm |
Chevy Volt has owned it for a year and never bought gas. It works for her. A far as an electric vehicle working for everyone they haven't got there yet. More than likely never will. For a lot of people an electric may be fine, the market will determine that.
NO... WIPE and the Greenies say THEY WILL DETERMINE THAT.... Look at Kalifornia MANDATES...
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Kansas99
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 10:43pm |
Trawler II wrote:
Pretty bizarre unless you're driving a Tesla. I guess exceptions have to be made, it is counterproductive if you're a hardcore greenie. I have nothing against electric vehicles, if people want one they should be able to do so. Have a friend whose wife drives a Chevy Volt has owned it for a year and never bought gas. It works for her. A far as an electric vehicle working for everyone they haven't got there yet. More than likely never will. For a lot of people an electric may be fine, the market will determine that.
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I agree, sure there's a place but a lot of changes need be made before we're ready here and I guarantee, although the service is excellent here what they charge for electric is not. Problem is IMO there was basically Great Bend and Garden City Ks that generated rural power, both off of coal. My area electric co. Midwest out of Hays bought out REA in Great Bend and shutdown the power plant in favor of just buying all of it. Now they get raked at peak demand and have no way of offsetting the cost so they pass it along in "demand charges" Funny thing is if I was a county further west under Sunflower out of Garden City those same wells would cost about $15/month for the meter(service) instead of $180. That electricity is going to get high when/if everyone in the city drives a EV and not only will the driver pay but those that don't as well.
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Kansas99
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 10:32pm |
TramwayGuy wrote:
“…Sure the carbon footprint might possibly be 3X more than the present gas motor model,..”
Not necessarily true. Diesel generators have a fairly high efficiency compared to most gasoline automobiles. |
Actually I don't know but I assume they are running on NG. So that's environmentally friendly and CAT still builds motors. See I'm telling you it's win win.  and trust me if I had NG available my irrigation wells would be on it and I wouldn't think twice about buying the motors. Nothing says NG like paying close to $50/acre per year just to have electricity at your well so when your ready to spend $40/acre watering your crops for a year you have power. Sadly the "locally owned cooperative" also has the NG, go figure. All shoved through in the late 90's been a hurting since  |
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Trawler II
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 10:30pm |
Pretty bizarre unless you're driving a Tesla. I guess exceptions have to be made, it is counterproductive if you're a hardcore greenie. I have nothing against electric vehicles, if people want one they should be able to do so. Have a friend whose wife drives a Chevy Volt has owned it for a year and never bought gas. It works for her. A far as an electric vehicle working for everyone they haven't got there yet. More than likely never will. For a lot of people an electric may be fine, the market will determine that.
Edited by Trawler II - 22 Sep 2022 at 10:31pm
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"Most people find it easier to believe a simple lie, than the complex truth"
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Kansas99
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 10:14pm |
Trawler II wrote:
Have to wonder about this, maybe it's a backup generator to service customers in the event of a power outage. Pretty hard to believe the thing runs full time, especially next to a convenience store. Noise would sure be noticeable. |
Actually, it starts up when you plug in. They want to make a profit selling electricity and believe me the monthly demand charges from the local "Customer owned cooperative" for the peak that would be drawn out if all the charges had a car hooked up would axe their profits. That's not a joke, for instance I have irrigation wells that are 15HP electric and pull a max of 28 amps and I can't tell you what that means other than my monthly charge just to have a meter at my well and using no electricity will be over $180 per well and that's based on the maximum amount of pull at anytime during the year(start up for a well). There's people here that know about this far more than me but if say 4 cars hook up and recharge in 30 min I can't possible imagine that amount of demand they will use. I'm thinking thousands of dollars a month just to have the meter there and then having to be competitive on price of electricity. I am also told same situation at Wal-Mart in Hays(right on I70) but I don't know I don't go there. If you look at the picture on google maps you can see the rain cap wide open.
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Trawler II
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 9:52pm |
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Have to wonder about this, maybe it's a backup generator to service customers in the event of a power outage. Pretty hard to believe the thing runs full time, especially next to a convenience store. Noise would sure be noticeable.
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"Most people find it easier to believe a simple lie, than the complex truth"
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 9:35pm |
Not necessarily true. Diesel generators have a fairly high efficiency compared to most gasoline automobiles.
Your kidding , right ?? THATS what you got out of this discussion ??
Run off BATTERIES, then RECHARGE with a DIESEL GENERATOR for the "environment" ??
Edited by steve(ill) - 22 Sep 2022 at 9:36pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 9:17pm |
you didn't factor in
the carbon footprint to BUILD those generators,
the carbon footprint to haul diesel TO those generators the carbon footprint for the service vehicles to repair/service those generators, the carbon footprint to harvest,mill,haul,install the wooden fences around those generators,..... probably a few more footprints...while they may be small, they ALL add up
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TramwayGuy
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 9:00pm |
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“…Sure the carbon footprint might possibly be 3X more than the present gas motor model,..”
Not necessarily true. Diesel generators have a fairly high efficiency compared to most gasoline automobiles.
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Kansas99
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 7:50pm |
I'm personally in favor of the Tesla quick charge stations like they have around me. They have 4 or 5 stalls then off to the side there are nice wood fenced in squares and inside the fence is big CAT engines running generators making the electricity to charge the cars. It's a win win situation for everyone, the engine manufactures get to build engines, the oil companies sell them fuel, the generator companies build generators, the car companies build cars, and the electric motor companies build motors!!! Sure the carbon footprint might possibly be 3X more than the present gas motor model, but it's a small price to pay when everyone gets to put their hand in the cookie jar. 
Don't believe me, go to google maps street view and look behind applebees in Hays KS(west side) some lady setting in her Tesla and you can see the generator in the fence. 
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Kansas99
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 7:37pm |
DiyDave wrote:
Question is still whether it economically viable without govt subsidies... |
So are you trying to say that all these wind turbines that you and I are paying 70 cents on the dollar for that have a 20 year life expectancy and a 38 year payback wouldn't get built without our funding.
Seems odd, sounds like what the guy I met with from GE that wanted to build towers on my ground said, who would have thought.
I should add he also told me that they had attorneys that made prairie chickens go away.
Edited by Kansas99 - 22 Sep 2022 at 7:39pm
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 6:30pm |
cept NO actual installations/customers that I can see on their webpage just graphics..... no prices, no chart of power vs time, etc. (the 'numbers' )
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bigal121892
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 6:17pm |
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DMiller
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 4:23pm |
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Lithium in a full metallic state is dangerous, immersed or exposed to water and it self ignites much as Phosphorous.
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TramwayGuy
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 3:50pm |
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Megapacks battery:
“Dive Brief:
Tesla is switching to lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery cells for its utility-scale Megapack energy storage product, a move that analysts say could signal a broader shift for the energy storage industry.
Costs for LFP batteries have dropped in recent years, although they have historically cost more to produce than other lithium-based chemistries. LFP batteries do not use cobalt, a critical mineral that can be expensive, and tend to have a lower fire risk than more conventional lithium-nickel-manganese-cobalt-oxide (NMC) batteries.”
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 2:15pm |
burning Tesla took 20,000 galloas of drinking water over 8 hrs to FINALLY put the fire out...AND took 3-4 firetrucks + crews. fortunately that was in the city where htey have LOTS of water and firemen...
I'd be really,really 'upset' if the volunteers here had to WASTE resources like that on ONE car.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 2:06pm |
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DANG... what a bunch of Debby Downers !!.... Whats a little WHITE SMOKE and TOXIC FUMES among friends...just DUMP them in the LAND FILL every 10 years !!! ... Remember... KILL COAL !! KILL COAL !! KILL COAL !!.. thats the AGENDA !
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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LouSWPA
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 11:57am |
JW in MO wrote:
I’m betting this is why it’s not such a good plan. They are getting better but I think a LOT of safety issues are being bypassed for nefarious reasons.
https://www.theregister.com/AMP/2022/09/21/tesla_battery_megapack_fire/
Ya, but when they burn, it is a clean white smoke! LOL from what I have read, they are darn near impossible to extinguish, and when burning, dumping all sorts of chemicals and garbage into the air! But we don't hear much about that in the 'news'!
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I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord;
be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27
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tadams(OH)
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 11:53am |
How long does these batteries last before they need replaced? I know that if you went solar and put in a 6 volt battery packs the they had to be replaced every 8 to 10 years. Im agine what that cost.
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LouSWPA
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 11:50am |
DMiller wrote:
Gas turbines are not designed to idle long periods. If someone stated that are horribly misconceived.
Natural gas turbines are remotely started, ramp up to speed in seconds, field the generator in less than 30 seconds and grid tie at full load under a minute. Are ramped on grid as load demand shows up shifting demand prior to load exceeding capacity.
Smaller gas turbines are of the 35-60mw capacity, larger are 75-120mw usually in partnered banks of two to five where are added on one at a time as needed. A basic issue with turbines is they are only efficient at or near full speed, no matter what the fuel is.
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I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord;
be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 9:06am |
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If you have excess power 90% of the time, and you just need an hour or two of PEAK as JOHN said, it will work.. Problem is you have to have EXCESS most of the time to RECHARGE the dead batteries...... Gas turbines can also be used for PEAK as Dave said.. Startup quick and dont need RECHARGE.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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JW in MO
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 8:06am |
I’m betting this is why it’s not such a good plan. They are getting better but I think a LOT of safety issues are being bypassed for nefarious reasons. https://www.theregister.com/AMP/2022/09/21/tesla_battery_megapack_fire/
Edited by JW in MO - 22 Sep 2022 at 8:07am
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