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Chevrolet 235 Oil Burnt |
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CrestonM
Orange Level Joined: 08 Sep 2014 Location: Oklahoma Points: 8357 |
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Posted: 05 Oct 2021 at 3:38pm |
Not burnt as in getting by the rings, but burnt as in smelling like tar and turning dark brown.
This is new to me…was hauling grain in the ‘51 and everything was going good…had put in a freshly cleaned radiator, temperature was normal at 180°. Started noticing very light traces of steam/grey smoke coming from under the hood. The whole trip I kept a close watch on oil and water, and a few minutes later, oil pressure dropped from about 5-7 lbs to 2 lbs rather quickly, so stopped the truck. At idle it had no oil pressure. Didn’t knock but but sort of a light rumbling noise. Opened the hood and the steam is coming from the sump cap. Pulled the dipstick and the whole lower end is blazing hot, hotter than I’ve ever felt. The entire length of the dipstick is steaming. It’s full of oil. But smells like tar. Coolant level is normal. Not getting coolant in oil I don’t think. Oil isn’t milky. Let it sit about an hour, pull dipstick again. Still really hot, but still shows full, and oil is a bit lighter colored now. (Changed oil about 250 miles ago, so still pretty new) Engine started up, hummed like a sewing machine at idle, about 5-7 lbs oil pressure so that’s good (not a full-pressure 235, it has the dipper cups). Give it more throttle and the light rumbling noise comes back. Shut it down and towed the rest of the way home, not wanting to mess anything up more. Any ideas? What causes oil to burn and get so hot when the coolant is perfectly fine? I’m hoping I didn’t spin a bearing, but I guess it’s time to pull the pan. Thought I would change the oil with a quart or two of Lucas oil stabilizer included and see if that makes a difference. Would like to at least be able to get the wheat off the truck. |
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LeonR2013
Orange Level Joined: 01 Jan 2013 Location: Fulton, Mo Points: 3500 |
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Kinda sounds like a spun main bearing, but like you say time to start pulling stuff off. Valve cover and pan first. Leon
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |
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With a quick loss of oil pressure, I’d be wondering if the pick up tube in the pan is restricted. Sounds like you’re in for an overhaul though. If you didn’t spin any bearings, it almost certain that you tore them and the crank up.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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CrestonM
Orange Level Joined: 08 Sep 2014 Location: Oklahoma Points: 8357 |
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That’s what I’m afraid of. I just can’t figure out what caused it. I had never heard of that happening.
The oil getting real hot and burnt smelling, that is. I’ve heard of spun bearings, but not really sure what causes them either. Edited by CrestonM - 05 Oct 2021 at 5:32pm |
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |
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Oil does a few things, lubricates, cleans, and cools. If you’re not getting enough flow through the bearings, the friction creates extra heat and it welds the bearings to the crank. The only thing holding the bearings in place, if it has replaceable shells and not poured babbit is the crush fit of the bearing cap. The tangs are for alignment only. I don’t know when GM went to precision insert shells, but with dipper style rods, there’s a chance you have poured babbit style. You might be better off going with another engine. There’s a bigger six from the 60s, 268 I think that would go right in I’m told.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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allisbred
Orange Level Access Joined: 28 Mar 2015 Location: Hanover Pa Points: 1011 |
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Need pictures of the ‘51 Chevy! My guess is mains. Rod will be a consistent noise from slapping.
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CrestonM
Orange Level Joined: 08 Sep 2014 Location: Oklahoma Points: 8357 |
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I know the rods are poured, but the mains are inserts. I had it apart a few years ago to put in new rings, valves, take shims out of the rods and reseal the engine.
I will see if I can get a photo of the truck to upload |
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JoeO(CMO)
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Cent Missouri Points: 2694 |
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I think it was '54 when chevy went to all inserts, -ran into this when I had a 54
Edited by JoeO(CMO) - 06 Oct 2021 at 6:57am |
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Steve in NJ
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Andover, NJ Points: 11538 |
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I'm wit' Brian and Allisbred. Sounds to me like you spun a main bearing. I've also seen where the pickup tube has fallen off to. The ole' 235's were tough engines, but their oiling systems sucked, especially in the rocker shaft area.... Steve@B&B
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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Ray54
Orange Level Access Joined: 22 Nov 2009 Location: Paso Robles, Ca Points: 4340 |
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Still have a rusted 1960 with a 235. We had it running 25 years ago but had no paper work so never drove it.
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tomNE
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: dorchester, ne Points: 1214 |
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and your sure it's a 235? it had to have been put in there; those came with the babbit bearing 216's. we always had to cut out the radiator support about 2in to get the radiator to clear the fan when we changed them over.
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CrestonM
Orange Level Joined: 08 Sep 2014 Location: Oklahoma Points: 8357 |
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Yessir it is a 235. And yes, you are right, it was put there. In 1951 at the General Motors Kansas City plant. Rod dipper 235s were used in big trucks several years before they were common in passenger cars and smaller pickups.
Edited by CrestonM - 06 Oct 2021 at 10:25pm |
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5637 |
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Aereation (sucking air bubbles in) will cause the oil TEMP of an engine or hydraulic system to skyrocket. What's happening is pretty simple... air drawn in, gets compressed to less than 1/10th of it's size, and when it does, all the latent heat energy gets compressed into a very small space, where the oil around it becomes rapidly heated. IF the circumstances are 'right', that little bubble has enough oxygen to support combustion, a little bit of that oil will actually ignite... it's called 'Diesel Effect'. It results in extremely high oil temp, and rapid coking of the oil. A plugged pickup will do it... a pinhole leak in a pickup tube will do it... a crack in an oil pump, or a bad oil pump cover seal will also do it.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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tomNE
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: dorchester, ne Points: 1214 |
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thanks for that info; i had a shop in the 80's and were always on the look out for later 235's but they also had a problem with cracked heads. I did't see many farm trucks that hadn't had the engine changed as the babbit bearing oil dippers didn't like hard work!
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CrestonM
Orange Level Joined: 08 Sep 2014 Location: Oklahoma Points: 8357 |
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I’m not sure why this one hasn’t been changed. It’s got nearly 91,000 miles and has hauled combines and wheat its whole life. I figured it would’ve had more significant problems before now
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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CrestonM
Orange Level Joined: 08 Sep 2014 Location: Oklahoma Points: 8357 |
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My grandpa has owned the truck since 1954, when he bought it from a custom harvester who he went to church with. He said aside from a valve job and rings (I forget the mileage but it’s written inside the door) he never did anything to it.
Along with a few other things, I put rings and a new head + valves on in 2018. The old head was cracked on 4 cylinders so it was a little lacking in power. Has ran great up till now. I changed the oil in it yesterday and filled with 3qt Lucas heavy duty oil stabilizer and 3 qt Shell Rotella SAE30. 15 lbs pressure cold, sounds good, throttle advances quickly. But has a light squealing noise that sounds like the belt slipping. When I quickly open the throttle, it goes away momentarily, but then comes right back, regardless if I leave the throttle at the higher RPM or return to idle. Ideas? I’m nearly certain it’s not the belt, especially since the noise goes away when accelerating, but I need to slip it off and make sure. Would’ve done it yesterday but it got dark. Edited by CrestonM - 07 Oct 2021 at 12:57pm |
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allisbred
Orange Level Access Joined: 28 Mar 2015 Location: Hanover Pa Points: 1011 |
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Sounds like the light squealing could be a slight vacuum leak if goes away while using accelerator pump. Have you used a stethoscope towards the bottom end? Another option is to send oil sample for analysis, it would determine what foreign debris is in the oil(we use this method at work frequently before pulling bearing housings apart) to help diagnose without extra labor being added. If the oil is burnt, you definitely have an issue that needs addressed before catastrophic failure. Could be a simple issue in the pump as suggested.
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CrestonM
Orange Level Joined: 08 Sep 2014 Location: Oklahoma Points: 8357 |
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I hadn’t thought about sending the oil in, I did save what I drained out, though, so that’s an idea. I held a very bright light to it in a dark room, and there’s no metallic shimmer to any of it, so that’s a good thing.
I’m hoping I can pull the truck to the field and run the engine just enough to get the hoist raised and grain unloaded. Then I can tuck it in the barn for inspection. To answer the other question…no, I haven’t used a stethoscope yet. I have one, but it’s about 2 hrs away. I kinda thought it might be a vacuum leak, too, so I’ll have to do some checking. It didn’t leak before but I guess everything starts at some point. Edited by CrestonM - 07 Oct 2021 at 2:58pm |
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 7970 |
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I know you're trying to avoid it,but you better drop the pan and find out what's wrong.
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5637 |
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Does this 235 have an elastomeric harmonic balancer? If so... the ring might be slipping.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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shameless dude
Orange Level Joined: 10 Apr 2017 Location: east NE Points: 13611 |
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stick a Cummins in it!
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CrestonM
Orange Level Joined: 08 Sep 2014 Location: Oklahoma Points: 8357 |
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Dave, this particular engine doesn’t have that type of balancer.
I was able to tow the truck to the field and run the engine just enough to get the hoist up to unload the wheat. However, even in that short amount of time, the engine decided to start telling knock knock jokes once the oil warmed up, but I didn’t think they were that funny. Towed it back to the barn, next step will be to drop the pan and probably pull the engine. I like your idea, Shameless, do you have a Cummins to donate? Other than that, I’m trying to decide if I want to rebuilt the original engine or find a later full pressure oiling 235 or 261. A 292 would work with an adapter plate. I’d kinda like to keep the original engine, it’s lasted 70 years, was used hard for 40 and hauled combines and grain its whole life, so surely a good rebuilt would last me a while. Getting the rods machined for insert bearings should help add some longevity. Or another thought I had…find something else to put in, but keep the original, overhaul it, and save it for when/if the truck more or less retires, then I’ll have the right engine for it. Lots of options, just weighing pros and cons at this point. Edited by CrestonM - 12 Oct 2021 at 7:37am |
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Jim.ME
Orange Level Joined: 19 Nov 2016 Location: Maine Points: 934 |
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If you really want to use it, go with your idea to put a 261 or a 235 in it. Spray some oil or chain and cable oil in the cylinders of the 216 and save it, in case you want to rebuild it and install when you retire the truck.
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shameless dude
Orange Level Joined: 10 Apr 2017 Location: east NE Points: 13611 |
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Creston retire anything?????? shucks....he takes all of the stuff outta retirement! i don't gots a Cummins, but do have a 454 that would make it go,go,go! just think...dual crome pipes up the back of the cab...
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CrestonM
Orange Level Joined: 08 Sep 2014 Location: Oklahoma Points: 8357 |
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Sounds like Shameless had me figured out!
I drug a cotton stripper out of the weeds that hadn’t been to the field since ‘91, going to harvest with it this year if all goes as planned. Previous owner is excited to see it run. I like your 454 idea! When you gonna bring it to me? Chrome pipes would make it look good! |
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 7970 |
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You don't need an adaptor plate,just a bell housing from 63 or later when GM made the mating the same. May have to get creative on motor mounts but not certain. They used same tranny til 65? Think large truck hsg had motor mounts. I know tranny hung off bell housing.
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im4racin
Orange Level Joined: 12 Jun 2017 Location: Garrison ND Points: 825 |
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Will need housing from pre 64 pickup. Big truck could be later. Stop over at stovebolt.com. They will know in the big truck section of the forum.
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JohnColo
Orange Level Joined: 03 Apr 2020 Location: Niwot, CO Points: 1258 |
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Wait until next July when you can stop by Shameless's place on the way to Hutch. You might get a chance to find some other things he doesn't need, like maybe a "pretty" machine!
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