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New Winco PTO Generator (HELP)

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jaybmiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 8:40am
27kw is about 36HP, so I'd think you need 40 PTO HP, to run it full out.
memeber that's PTO HP NOT engine HP.

ok tractor data says you've got 50+ PTO HP so MORE than enough to run the genny !!!

I suspect there's something wrong with the genny.
As long as it says '60 Hz +-1 or 2, you should be able to light a zillion light, power  skillsaws, etc. without ANY problems.


Edited by jaybmiller - 24 Sep 2021 at 8:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 9:11am
DaveKamp, thank you for the excellent post describing the workings of mechanical governors.

An electronic governor control using a PID feedback loop has the potential to control speed more precisely, but that is really beyond the scope of antique tractors such as ours.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 9:26am
There sure seems to be some discrepancy of how many PTO HP it takes to operate this generator. The owner says 54 HP. Now we have a claim of 40 HP. The tractor makes 51 HP @ 540 RPM PTO speed, not 54 HP. It does make 54 HP @ 1800 engine RPM which would be about 600 PTO RPM.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 9:28am
I wonder if the OP saying 54 HP is the "input" required to produce the output of 27kw (36 HP)?  The generator is not 100% efficient, nothing is. . .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote HudCo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 12:02pm
being generac and honda dealers we work on lots of generaters and portable welders most of the problems is the is be caucause  the engine dosnt run proper the geny will not put out ,  we have some customers that are pumping water over the mountian to water troughs and they get loaded to the very max so we have these set at 3750 to 3900 no laod so they can hang on at 3500 to 3600 most of these have 100 gallon gas tanks hooked to them and run till they run out of gas or the oil switch shuts them down  with that use they start breaking down and having problems at around 3500 hours  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 2:24pm
27,000 watts OUTPUT is 36 HP OUTPUT.... that is 750 Watts per HP ( fixed value)....
---- You need a lot MORE than that for INPUT to get the 27,000 OUTPUT... The generator is not 100% efficient ... The COMPANY says it 54 HP INPUT.. I take their word for that.


27,000 WATTS / 240 VOLTS = 112 AMPS output

again, the generator could be OVERISZED... If you only wanted to output 60-70 amps then you have plenty of HP on a 170..... but maybe not at 1500 rpm.


Edited by steve(ill) - 24 Sep 2021 at 2:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by HudCo HudCo wrote:

...  we have some customers that are pumping water over the mountian to water troughs and they get loaded to the very max so we have these set at 3750 to 3900 no laod so they can hang on at 3500 to 3600 most of these have 100 gallon gas tanks hooked to them and run till they run out of gas or the oil switch shuts them down  with that use they start breaking down and having problems at around 3500 hours  


Interesting. I wonder at what point would it be beneficial to switch to a diesel? Maybe never on small generators?

I have always used a rule of thumb 2 gasoline engine HP per Kilowatt and 1.5 diesel engine HP/Kilowatt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

27,000 watts OUTPUT is 36 HP OUTPUT.... that is 750 Watts per HP ( fixed value)....
---- You need a lot MORE than that for INPUT to get the 27,000 OUTPUT... The generator is not 100% efficient ... The COMPANY says it 54 HP INPUT.. I take their word for that.


27,000 WATTS / 240 VOLTS = 112 AMPS output

again, the generator could be OVERISZED... If you only wanted to output 60-70 amps then you have plenty of HP on a 170..... but maybe not at 1500 rpm.
Gee, I wish I has said something like that!WinkLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 2:55pm
YEA... if you have electric power and you are running an electric motor , you figure about 1000 watts per HP,  ( even tho the 100% efficient calc is 750 watts)... so going backward from gas to electric ( generator) it would make sense to use a number at least 35% smaller than 750 watts... more like  500 watts OUT per HP IN.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 6:33pm
While you may need 54HP to get the FULL rated output of the genny, you certainly don't need that to get enough electrons to power a few lights or a skillsaw. No different than running a tractor at low speed to drag a cultivator to lightly deweed a soft soiled field. There's no way you'd run the tractor at full engine speed,you create enough engine HP for the load (work) it's doing.
The genny MFR should have graphs of input HP vs output power 'somewhere'. I KNOW I can get that for every Delco alternator....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 7:19pm
thats right............ as long as you run the generator FAST enough to maintain 60 Hz or more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calvin Schmidt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 7:53pm
We have a portable 100 kw 3 phase genset with a 138 hp diesel running at 1800 rpm.
Should give some idea of kW to engine hp ratio. 
Last year I installed a 35kw Onan genset powered by a propane fueled Ford 300 engine
for my house/shop. Has the automatic transfer switch etc.  Works well. Have the no load HZ dialed in on the high side.


Edited by Calvin Schmidt - 24 Sep 2021 at 7:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigal121892 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by jaybmiller jaybmiller wrote:

While you may need 54HP to get the FULL rated output of the genny, you certainly don't need that to get enough electrons to power a few lights or a skillsaw. No different than running a tractor at low speed to drag a cultivator to lightly deweed a soft soiled field. There's no way you'd run the tractor at full engine speed,you create enough engine HP for the load (work) it's doing.
The genny MFR should have graphs of input HP vs output power 'somewhere'. I KNOW I can get that for every Delco alternator....


Two totally different applications. As the alternator ultimately puts out ~12 volts, as long as the alternator is running fast enough to be able to generate something greater than about 14 to 16 volts the system is happy. With generator that is powering AC loads, the generator has to be kept at a speed that will supply a constant 60Hz. In a power plant regardless of load, the generator always turns at the same RPM, to maintain a constant 60Hz.


Edited by bigal121892 - 24 Sep 2021 at 8:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 8:27pm
I could hook that 27,000 watt generator to my ALLIS "B" and set tractor at 1650 RPM and with 61 hz OUTPUT... i could run a skill saw and a dozen light bulbs..... I dont "NEED" the 27,000 watts to do that... maybe  2000 watts.......... ANY MOTOR will run that generator as long as your turning it above 540 RPM and getting over 60 hz. .... Your INPUT HP determines the MAX OUTPUT you can get without dragging the motor down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 9:25pm
The 'car alternator' is an AC generator, 3 phase actually, and I can spin it at 60 Hz all day long to power 60Hz  equipment, however as the LOAD demand goes up ( more light bulbs...) you'll need to increase/decrease the field windings to get the amps out of it. When the demand for more power increase, it 'loads down' the prime mover, so IT needs to supply more power( torque) to maintain the correct RPM for the 60Hz power.
One example..... car doing 60 up a steep hill. To maintain a constant speed, YOU have to put the pedal to the metal, to get more POWER out of the engine to maintain that 60MPH. The reason for 60Hz is that most power equipment have primary transformers designed for 60Hz . The original powerplants at Niagara Falls were 25Hz, LOTS of iron and copper were needed. They were converted to 60Hz ,late 40s-early 50s,reduced the iron and copper. I still have the wall clock Hamilton Hydro gave customers when the conversion took place. Aircraft power was generally 400Hz and some 1000Hz, again less iron/copper = less weight, good for airplanes ! Power supplies for computers and stuff are now 20KHz or more(some 1MHz),again, reducing iron/copper for lighter,cheaper equipment.So it's not the speed that determines the HP needed to spin the genny, it's the LOAD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2021 at 7:03am
Right, it’s not the speed that determines, it’s the load. But it’s the speed of the PTO shaft that sets the Hz of that type of generator.   And as you more / less said, just because the tractor is running that fast, doesn’t mean it’s putting out it’s max power.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2021 at 7:08pm
No, not interested in a PTO generator, but I’m going to add standby generators to my Briggs & Stratton dealership. I can get you set up with one if you’re in the central Iowa area
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2021 at 7:37pm
going back to the OP....
I downloaded the winco datasheet to see the 'numbers'...
your test load is 6 LEDs x 150watts each = 900 watts of LEDs, OK make it an even 1KW
winco says 2HP per KW, so.... old school math says 2HP x 1KW = 2HP. needed.
As long as the genny's spinning at 60Hz, those LEDS should be bright ! heck you're using less than 3.5% of the rated capacity on the genny ( 900 Watts out of 27,000 ),there's no way the genny ,let alone tractor would even KNOW them LEDs were connected and on.
as a test, grab a skilsaw see if it works OK, they use less than 12 amps, well within the 20A spec of the receptacle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kurzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 7:08am
 
    Howdy  jaymiller,
   Your math is very right! I thought that was petty sad too for  a new 27kw Winco! This week I start working with Winco factory from Minnesota. That was their first blame was my tractor! So lets see how this goes??

   Kurzy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 7:21am
If you don't have the engine/PTO running fast enough, it is the tractor !!  Have you actually tried it with the PTO speed above 1650 engine RPM ??

Edited by DrAllis - 26 Sep 2021 at 7:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 7:40am
As long as the meter on the genny say 60 +-2, tractor RPM/ PTO RPM is OK. Normal household power varies that much, and I'm just 40 miles+- from Niagara Falls.
If the tractor can run a bushhog it's got MORE then enough 'guts' to spin the genny to lightup a few LEDs...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 7:51am
The tractor can run a bush hog at 1500 engine RPM, but NOT a PTO generator. He said that was the speed (1500) he was trying to run it at and I don't see that he has retested it at higher engine speed. He's been spending time trying to make the alternator charge the battery.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 8:06am
Exactly......... he has already tested the generator...

 Howdy All,
  I got to use a John Deere 4040 , 90 hp yesterday. Took 22 rpm to run 60 hz no load. Started loading with them 6 led lights and then 5 hp air compressor. Generator when down just a bit but held it. 5 hp compressor started just great even with them 6 lights on. I then did take the generator up a bit to see if hold at 60 hz and it did! I was a happy camper to see this winco finally do its job. Now I will go back to running my AC170 with higher rpm


Edited by steve(ill) - 26 Sep 2021 at 8:07am
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kurzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 8:40am

   Howdy,
  First you need a tractor that runs so you can run the Winco. MY Tractor stop starting right after I ran the Winco for the first time. That is way I bought in the John 4040. Even at 90 hp with 2200 rpm  at 60 hertz make  them 6 lights make the needle drop!

  But I live in Montana, internet goes out so often I can not complete a sentence on here many times. Not to mention power goes off so often here too! That is way I got , I hoped a back up power. Not working so good.

 This is a great site , with more great different opinions. 

 Thanks Kurzy



   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 10:49am
Make what needle drop from what to what?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 5:34pm
If you’re still at 60hz NO LOAD, you are running the tractor TOO SLOW. You need to RAISE your RPMS to take in account for the load on the engine pulling the rpms down.
Things like lights, including LEDs, don’t care in the slightest about the frequency. An old fashioned manual battery charger won’t care either. An AC electric most definitely does. That’s why you set the frequency above 60 on a generator. When a motor starts there’s that huge surge to get up to speed. If you’re only at 60 before a motor starts you’ll pull the engine down probably as low as 55hz. Your motors won’t like that along with the reduced voltage. You’re also not doing the tractor engine any favors by lugging it down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 8:49pm
As others already noted, the 4040 had no problem doing the job, because it is a diesel, and the diesel's injection pump is much more sensitive and reactive than a throttle plate in the airstream.  Fact of fluid dynamics... gases are compressible, liquids are not, and as a result, the diesel's fuel-metering will naturally be more responsive than the spark-ignition's throttle action.

The load curve of a generator is NOT LINEAR.  You don't start it up at no load, and have the horsepower requirement as a nice, consistent increase in proportion to load...  because...

The generating plant consists of TWO GENERATORS IN ONE.  The main alternator generates your AC output.  The EXCITER generates FIELD CURRENT (DC), which is metered by the voltage regulator, to increase excitation current to keep voltage stable.

The loading sequence that results, is as follows:

The prime mover brings the alternator up to slightly above synchronous speed... so... 61.5hz or so... for a 4-pole gennie, that's exactly 1845rpm, but 1850 is pretty common.

There's a little residual magnetism inside the iron frame of the main alternator, and some in the frame of the exciter.  The exciter thus starts to generate a little DC output voltage, and the main alternator generates a few volts of AC output.  Once the DC output appears, the voltage regulator determines the system voltage as way low, it bypasses all field series resistance, allowing ALL exciter current to flow through the alternator's field windings, which feeds the reactive magnetic field in the exciter's stator, and causes DC output to jump to 'full load' state for a fraction of a second.  This causes the engine load to jump up a bit (you'll hear the gennie 'grunt' for a moment, as the application of a DC load DOES create torque load.  The alternator's field winding is usually nothing to smirk at, my 35kw Kato's exciter output is about 20A at around 30vdc at full load.

Once the DC field has built up, the main alternator's AC voltage jumps skyward, the voltage REGULATOR reacts by un-shorting bypass terminals that add series resistance to the FIELD winding.  This reduces the excitation current flow to alternator field, to bring AC voltage back into proper range.  Once voltage falls, the regulator recovers, bringing voltage back UP into range.  This oscillation can cause instability... but more on that later.

When the exciter load comes on, the gennie shaft speed is dragged down, which as a load on the engine... slowing it down.  When the GOVERNOR finally figures out that the engine is under load (DROOP has occurred), the governor linkage slack is drawn or pulled out, and the engine throttle (or fuel rack) is allowed to increase to bring the engine back up to speed.

Without having ANY load on the generator, there is STILL a generating load on the engine.  Creating that excitation consumes shaft horsepower.  Spinning the fan INSIDE the generator consumes energy.

Once running, a small load doesn't generate any significant necessity for additional shaft horsepower, BUT... when the small load causes a little voltage drop, then the VOLTAGE REG starts allowing more current flow, which causes the original shaft HP demand to go up, not just from the load, but the power demand of the EXCITER trying to MATCH the load.

So before you even plug IN an appliance, or a lamp, the generator needs shaft HP.  When you apply more load, the governor AND regulator will be responding... governor to shaft speed, and regulator to output voltage... and how ONE of those responds to the load, directly impacts the OTHER's job.

The problem here is not available horsepower... it is strictly RPM.  No load at 1845... full load at 1800.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by Les Kerf Les Kerf wrote:

DaveKamp, thank you for the excellent post describing the workings of mechanical governors.

An electronic governor control using a PID feedback loop has the potential to control speed more precisely, but that is really beyond the scope of antique tractors such as ours.


Yes, Les, a PID loop and electronic actuator WOULD, and DOES help, except with complexit anyway.

My 35kw Consolodated has BOTH a Hoof-Pierce mechanical governor, AND a Woodward APECS electronic PID controller.  Since the Hercules JXLD has a magneto with impulser, and propane fueling, there's no reason I can't start it from totally dead with the crank...  but if it's totally dead (dead battery) then an electronic PID system will NOT be able to control the generator for a while 'till it's actually RUNNING...  but the Hoof-Pierce CAN.

The H-F is set to high-idle the engine at 1240, and exhibits about 70rpm of droop (1170rpm)... that's 58.5hz.

What  I did, was set up the control panel circuitry to assume a 'dead' state that allows the prime mover to be hand started, and once running, the exciter's output brings up enough AC field to provide 12vdc through a transformer/linear supply.  The supply capacitors now charged, powers the APECs controller, which boots up, and starts counting teeth on the generator's ring gear, to get a speed signal.  The APECS then dials up or down the throttle to put it between 59.5 and 60.4.

In the event that the APECS fails, the Hoof-Pierce will allow the unit to run and generate, just with a wider freq range and not as much stability as the PID provides
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2021 at 6:01am
Ok, silly question.on an 'old skool' mechanical genny isn't the frequency meter (----60Hz-----) really just reading the PTO RPM , so that you set tractor throttle up or down until the needle reads 60 ?
I know there's some gearing involved, it may actually read the genny rotor shaft, but effectively , it's 'reading' the PTO shaft .
If this is correct, then once the tractor's RPM is set to get '60' on the meter, that's it...no further 'adjustments'.
I still can figure out how, as he can swing a bushhog(to me a high HP load), why the genny can't light 1000 W of LEDs.

dang 7AM here and dark...I could USE that genny, sniff, sniff...Fall is really here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kurzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2021 at 7:29am
   

    Howdy Gentleman,
   I have to keep facts straight so it is.

    Both tractors NEVER lugged down , neither did any governor kick in.  In my book both tractors were just roaring.

    John Deere 4040 ran rpm at 2200 to run no load at 60 HZ.
    Allis 170  ran 1500 maybe 1600 the most to run no load at 60 HZ
    
    So I took the 4040 up to 62 HZ then loaded and did hold 60 HZ.
    
     I was surprised the 4040 needed 2200 rpm to run 60 HZ no load! Then my AC 170 quit starting after running the Winco. So I am working on that and will put back on Winco and run 62 HZ and see what happens.

  Thanks for all info
   Kurzy
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