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wjohn 
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 Topic: Matching Used Camshaft and Lifters
Posted: 09 Feb 2021 at 8:42pm |
I wanted to follow up after resurfacing my lifters in my Sioux 645L valve grinder/resurfacer. I used the valve stem end attachment and took a bunch of light passes to get to a completely new, flat surface. The company I sent my cam off to (Delta Camshaft in Tacoma, WA) could've resurfaced them for several bucks each + shipping but the guy there I talked to said this method would be good for anything like this WD engine that has flat lifter faces. Anything with convex lifter faces (i.e. most automotive applications) would probably need a special tappet/lifter grinder that can give you a consistent radius, and I'd have to send those out to a shop like them. My valve grinder was in need of a new end wheel, which was about $30 and should last me through a lot of lifters and valve stem ends. I figure it has paid for itself already. I still need to put the engine back together and hope this was a successful project, but I learned a lot about lifters and camshaft grinding between the forum and Delta Camshaft.
Very worn lifter as removed from the engine:
Showing the attachment that holds the lifter, which is rotated up and down in and out of contact with the grinding wheel. Then you slowly turn the red wheel in the lower RH of the picture to feed the lifter closer to the grinding wheel with each pass, to take more and more material off of the face.
Here you can really see how the lifters had worn so that the face was concave - the freshly machined surface is a high spot only around the outer edge, where there is no wear from the cam lobe:
And done:
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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wjohn
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Posted: 26 Jul 2020 at 9:05am |
 Sugarmaker wrote:
John, Good information! Thanks for sharing. It is nice to have the real part in your hand to get good data from. Nice picture! Get that old cam tuned up and you will be good to go. Hey I way over think stuff too. Then have to get a reality check when I actually have the items in my hand and the work needs to get done! German and Swedish on this end.:) Regards, Chris |
No problem Chris. I wanted to solve this mystery. Thankfully they should be easy to clean up.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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wjohn
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Posted: 26 Jul 2020 at 9:00am |
Dick L wrote:
I will stand corrected! I received the convex information from the shop that did my crankshaft grinding.
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Well, that's not to say that the B/C/CA engines didn't have convex lifters, but I would be surprised if they were any different. Convex lifters seem to have been very common in automotive engines which is probably why the machine shop said that.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 26 Jul 2020 at 5:49am |
John, Good information! Thanks for sharing. It is nice to have the real part in your hand to get good data from. Nice picture! Get that old cam tuned up and you will be good to go. Hey I way over think stuff too. Then have to get a reality check when I actually have the items in my hand and the work needs to get done! German and Swedish on this end.:) Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Dick L
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Posted: 26 Jul 2020 at 5:43am |
wjohn wrote:
I picked up the new lifter today and it is actually very flat - not at all convex. Unless AGCO changed this more recently for service parts, I assume this is how they came from the factory for at least the 201 engines. As Butch said these engines should be happy with flat lifters - that appears to be how they were designed. I will use the valve end grinding attachment on my Sioux and clean up my old lifters with a nice flat surface and be able to sleep at night.
I am thinking that I will call around and ship my camshaft out to have the lobes reground. Jacob's right - not worth risking it at this point with the rest of the money I am putting into the engine. A couple lobes have enough pitting that they definitely need attention. Hopefully it will be good for 40 or 50 years.
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I will stand corrected! I received the convex information from the shop that did my crankshaft grinding.
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wjohn
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Posted: 25 Jul 2020 at 11:30pm |
I picked up the new lifter today and it is actually very flat - not at all convex. Unless AGCO changed this more recently for service parts, I assume this is how they came from the factory for at least the 201 engines. As Butch said these engines should be happy with flat lifters - that appears to be how they were designed. I will use the valve end grinding attachment on my Sioux and clean up my old lifters with a nice flat surface and be able to sleep at night.
I am thinking that I will call around and ship my camshaft out to have the lobes reground. Jacob's right - not worth risking it at this point with the rest of the money I am putting into the engine. A couple lobes have enough pitting that they definitely need attention. Hopefully it will be good for 40 or 50 years.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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wjohn
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Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 6:21pm |
DaveKamp wrote:
well... a guy could chuck them in a cordless drill, clamp it in a vise, duct-tape the trigger ON, and use a fine, well-worn flap-disk in a 4" grinder... |
I have to admit I'm not ballsy enough to try any of these, which may mostly be me overthinking it combined with not having enough nice ($$$) equipment... I sure couldn't meet the radius that is presumably specified on the print from AC. Or, it could be too much German in me vs. the Scottish. We will see what the new part looks like when it arrives and I'll proceed from there.
Certainly spinning the lifter while removing material is the way to go. The chuck on my valve grinder won't quite open up enough to fit these. I've been drill press shopping for other reasons already.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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wjohn
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Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 6:10pm |
garden_guy wrote:
As a not-motor guy, I am not quite sure what I am looking at. Is this something that yields motor "clicking" when running? Or some other "noise"?
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This engine wasn't making any odd noises and ran pretty well. I think it must have had almost no oil pressure or got a bunch of junk in the cam area at one point because in addition to the worn lifters, the camshaft journals were also very worn.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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wjohn
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Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 6:08pm |
DrAllis wrote:
I'd be shocked if AGCO even has any available. |
Turns out they don't, but I lucked out and my dealer has a NOS one at a different location that I'm supposed to pick up next week when it comes in.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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Dick L
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Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 11:39am |
jaybmiller wrote:
I had a B&S Vtwin Intek apart the other day and gee, when you consider it runs at 3600RPM for hours, weekly, the 'valve train' is well..kind of a joke compared to a 'tractor'. I'm thinkin you could 'mismatch' a tractor valvetrain and never notice anything chuggin along at 1500-2000 rpms.... While it would be nice to properly rebuild and get it 'tight' and up to 'factory specs', overall, it probably doesn't really matter....
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In most cases today for sure. 10 hours a day on a plow or fitting ground in making a living with a tractor that is less than full power would make a difference and make for tiring days.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 8:02am |
I had a B&S Vtwin Intek apart the other day and gee, when you consider it runs at 3600RPM for hours, weekly, the 'valve train' is well..kind of a joke compared to a 'tractor'. I'm thinkin you could 'mismatch' a tractor valvetrain and never notice anything chuggin along at 1500-2000 rpms.... While it would be nice to properly rebuild and get it 'tight' and up to 'factory specs', overall, it probably doesn't really matter....
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Dick L
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Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 6:12am |
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A hollow or wore lifter will increase the camshaft lobe ware to decrease the opening of the valve. Valves not opening will decrease fuel entering the firing chamber as well as allowing proper exhaust which can cause burning of a valve. If you only using the tractor for puttering around you most likely will never know the difference.
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garden_guy
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Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 3:15pm |
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As a not-motor guy, I am not quite sure what I am looking at. Is this something that yields motor "clicking" when running? Or some other "noise"?
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 2:54pm |
well... a guy could chuck them in a cordless drill, clamp it in a vise, duct-tape the trigger ON, and use a fine, well-worn flap-disk in a 4" grinder...
Or better yet, put a cheap speed controller on the 4" grinder, dial the speed way down, and smear the worn-out flap disk with some fine valve grinding garnet mixed with axle grease....
making them convex and PRECISE is simply a matter of having a radius to work on...
If you were a Kiwi, you'd cut a broomstick off at whatever that convex radius is, mark a spot on your shop floor just below where your cordless drill chuck spins, and use that as a 'swinging radius' rest for your 4" grinder as you made that dressing pass...
..If you were a Scotsman, you'd find a much harder way to do it...
(This, by the way, is a tip-of-my hat to all the Kiwis, Scotsman, and Russians out there who live amidst, and solve real-world problems and are NOT encumbered by the Proper Gentleman's Rules Of Machine Rebuilding Propriety (PGROMRP)
Edited by DaveKamp - 16 Jul 2020 at 2:59pm
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LeonR2013
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Posted: 15 Jul 2020 at 9:25pm |
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In addition wjohn I glued a piece of I think it was 400 emery, to a flat board and used both hands to keep the lifter as square as possible sanded back and forth, finished with very fine emery. Guess I was to dumb not to try it, but so far so good. Leon
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LeonR2013
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Posted: 15 Jul 2020 at 9:16pm |
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WJohn, yours are way worse than mine was. It had to be a noisy motor. I wouldn't attempt to do those by hand. But mine turned out good and still in there after several years of lite work.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 5:05pm |
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I'd be shocked if AGCO even has any available.
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wjohn
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Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 12:10pm |
HD6GTOM wrote:
I do not have any numbers. I went to a NAPA that has been in business since the 1930's. They knew which catalogue to look in. They did not come from the NAPA warehouse. Good luck with your tractor. The WD45 we have is one dad bought new. Last time I worked on the hovenor for him, I put 170 governor springs in it. It was his favorite tractor. |
Thanks Tom. I should price AGCO ones but I doubt they're much if any cheaper than the Reliance ones at $50 each. I wonder if the ones you got from NAPA were from Reliance or someone like Mahle, Sealed Power, etc. but I can't find them available anymore. As you are hinting at it might be worth stopping by a local NAPA in case they have a better way to look them up.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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wjohn
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Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 12:08pm |
Butch(OH) wrote:
Yes it grinds them flat, your engine will be happy with flat ground lifters |
Awesome. I guess that makes sense... They start out convex, eventually get worn flat, and then wear in to concave. By at least making them flat they're probably at least half as good as new, and way better than what they look like now.
These are samples of the ones I'm working with out of my WD. They're concave by 0.002-0.003 in the centers. Some have some pretty ugly wear patterns from the lobes at 90 degree angles which tells me they weren't or haven't been rotating at some point in their lives. Those spots are worn in a little deeper. I'll play around with grinding them flat on the valve end grinding attachment on my Sioux. No Bridgeport unfortunately but I can try hand finishing them.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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HD6GTOM
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Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 8:00am |
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I do not have any numbers. I went to a NAPA that has been in business since the 1930's. They knew which catalogue to look in. They did not come from the NAPA warehouse. Good luck with your tractor. The WD45 we have is one dad bought new. Last time I worked on the hovenor for him, I put 170 governor springs in it. It was his favorite tractor.
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 6:20pm |
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Yes it grinds them flat, your engine will be happy with flat ground lifters
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Dick L
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Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 3:37pm |
Slight convex is the way I have always re conditioned. They will get concave after enough dirty oil and hours of run time. The lifters out of this engine was as bad as I had ever seen them. I used a spin index on a pivot with a surface grinder in my tool shop. I used new lifters when I put a Crane ground camshaft in my one C. However my wife says I am absent minded. I tell her she is silly because I can not for the life of me remember being absent minded. 
Edited by Dick L - 04 Jul 2020 at 3:52pm
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wjohn
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Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 2:20pm |
Butch(OH) wrote:
My Black and Decker has that attachmemt. After using it I finish the lifter by placing it in a collar in the Bridgeport and lowering it on a lapping plate. |
That flat grinds the surface, or gives you a slightly convex surface?
I guess if these were flat from the factory I could handle that with my valve grinder.
Edited by wjohn - 04 Jul 2020 at 2:22pm
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 12:36pm |
wjohn wrote:
DrAllis wrote:
Some valve grinders have an attachment to reface mushroom type lifters. |
That would be slick. I have a Sioux 645L and it came with the rocker arm grinding attachment, but it doesn't look like they even made anything for lifters - at least for that model.
I was trying to think of a way to rig it up but I'm not sure I could accurately do much other than grind the bottom of the lifter flat. |
My Black and Decker has that attachmemt. After using it I finish the lifter by placing it in a collar in the Bridgeport and lowering it on a lapping plate.
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 9:53am |
wjohn wrote:
DrAllis wrote:
Some valve grinders have an attachment to reface mushroom type lifters. |
That would be slick. I have a Sioux 645L and it came with the rocker arm grinding attachment, but it doesn't look like they even made anything for lifters - at least for that model.
I was trying to think of a way to rig it up but I'm not sure I could accurately do much other than grind the bottom of the lifter flat. |
My Black and Decker has that attachmemt. After using it I finish the lifter by placing it in a collar in the Bridgeport and lowering it on a lapping plate.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 11:47pm |
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From Briggs & Stratton on up, flat tappets run off center of lobe so they will rotate.
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wjohn
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 11:45pm |
DrAllis wrote:
Some valve grinders have an attachment to reface mushroom type lifters. |
That would be slick. I have a Sioux 645L and it came with the rocker arm grinding attachment, but it doesn't look like they even made anything for lifters - at least for that model.
I was trying to think of a way to rig it up but I'm not sure I could accurately do much other than grind the bottom of the lifter flat.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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KMAG
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 10:01pm |
Vintage Power Wagons is your home for 218/230/265 Mopar flathead parts. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxzO_Oy1EMLIWVFzSHRzNjlOMWs/view$25 per valve tappet. Loads of low mileage (under 30k) military 230 M37 engines out there for cheap parts.
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Jacob (WI,ND)
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 9:57pm |
There are a lot of variables, but I'll give you my two cents from my experience. On my 20-35 rebuild, we originally used the original worn cam, with resurfaced lifters. That is what people told us we should do, and we didn't know any better, so we did just that. That was NOT the thing to do! After minimal running we pulled the engine side covers to inspect, to find the edges of several of the lifters chipped up and you can guess where those chips go. Long story short, we SHOULD have had the cam ground as well as the lifters. The old funny worn cam was putting pressure on the edges of the new lifters and making them fail. Maybe it was a fluke, but I don't think so. Tore the engine all back down to have the cam ground, and new lifters AGAIN. Clean out entire engine. Very frustrating. Take the time and $ and have both reground. It really doesn't cost that much compared to fixing the carnage when something goes wrong. Now you know how I know.
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Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45
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wjohn
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 9:53pm |
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Mack, thanks for the confirmation on concave being worn out. Leon I will be tempted to attempt some cleanup on these if I can't find affordable new ones.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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